Covid-19

TLDR20 said:
Why?
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Science is about asking questions.
Testing on this was rushed (thanks DJT), and we don't know how effective it really is, we don't know long term effects or how it affects the body.
How many safe drugs/vaccines have been pulled years later because additional research showed an adverse impact on the body?
 
DA SWO said:
Science is about asking questions.
Testing on this was rushed (thanks DJT), and we don't know how effective it really is, we don't know long term effects or how it affects the body.
How many safe drugs/vaccines have been pulled years later because additional research showed an adverse impact on the body?
Click to expand...
More than one, which is all you need for doubt.
 
Coworker: "Oh my God, can you teach my class for me? I tested positive for COVID!"

Me: "Yeah, sure. How are you feeling?"

Coworker: "I feel fine, my kid has it and I was exposed."

Me: "So...you are asymptomatic? You're not sick?"

Coworker: "No, but it's COVID!"

Me: Banging my head against the wall.....
 
DA SWO said:
Science is about asking questions.
Testing on this was rushed (thanks DJT), and we don't know how effective it really is, we don't know long term effects or how it affects the body.
How many safe drugs/vaccines have been pulled years later because additional research showed an adverse impact on the body?
Click to expand...

I understand in a vacuum. This incident didn’t occur in a vacuum. It is fine to “question everything” if when you ask the question you are willing and able to accept answers.

If I see a player get hit in the chest and then pass out and I hear they were in Vfib, which necessitated defibrillation, I’m going to assume it was CC. There is no reason to look for a zebra in a field that is full of horses.

As to some other things that were mentioned that must be brought up.

Why is the most common age for CC 14-18? Anyone want to hazard a guess? Because millions of kids play organized sports during that age range. That drops significantly at age 18, and even more so at age 22. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, it means the sample size drops.


amlove21 said:
So I would counter with, "Why isn't it?"

Again, I would really like to wait and see what happens with the young man; but for a couple different reasons, I feel like this issue is a really good example of how COVID broke a couple ways we think and discuss.

Is it 100% too early to say what this was? Absolutely, in all regards. It's just as equally silly to say "we know" it was commotio cordis as it is to say it was a heretofore undetected congenital cardiac myopathy, right? Right.

Is it wrong to immediately pop off with, "IT WAS THE FAUCI OUCHIE!" while some dude is fighting for his life (thereby politicizing this event in a really, really cynical way)? Yeah, I think that's in really poor taste, but it's no more likely or unlikely with what we know right this second.

Completely eliminating the vaccine as some sort of possibility when we've seen professional athletes and otherwise healthy young males dying (and presenting cardiomyopathies that just idiopathetically appeared out of nowhere) at a historic clip since 2021 is just as politically motivated and irresponsible. Didn't we have a talk in this thread about the numerous studies about post-vaccine cardiomyopathy? Aren't we past the, "It's a conspiracy theory to even say that" and on to, "Ok, maybe that's possible?" We have several people here on the board that have reported vaccine injury and this anecdotal and empiracal evidence is in line with the studies that are emerging now as the test subjects, the population, are starting to present. We didn't have the cohort of information becasue the studies weren't done and this is a fact.

If we want to discuss all possibilities, cool, let's discuss them all.

If you want to follow a distuubing hashtag on IG or Twitter, check out #DiedSuddenly. Fom Dr. Simone Gold- "From 2021 to present, 1101 athletes died from cardiac arrest. Over the prior 38 years (1966-2004), 1101 athletes under the age of 35 died due to various heart conditions. The same number of athletes died in the last two years as compared to the prior 38."

Yes, I am aware that there are numerous "fact checks" on statistics like these, so for the sake of discussion, I will cut the number in half (the 2021-present number)- which is ridiculous, given the fact that we have watched professional soccer players, marathon runners, and healthy young 16 year old hockey players die of strokes and heart attacks all with one notable similarity. News producer, 37, dies suddenly. 18 year old, previously healthy, dies suddenly. It's quite literally all over the news and easy to find and correlate.

That's still more deaths in healthy athletes in 1.2 years than in the last 20 years- wonder what that number looks like in regular American population with co-morbidities?

Science and intellectual discussion is ruling in and ruling out likely causes when appropriate facts are considered. Science is *not* immediately discounting what could be a very valid hypothesis because you don't feel like dealing with it or you're biased against it's outocme.

As I said- I hope that young man survives. No matter what happened, it's tragic and he's 24- and by all attempts, a good human.
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Notice how that person quantified "athletes" and "athletes under 35". Subtle way to be confusing, but keep reading, I will explain.

Have you actually looked at the data that the good Dr. McCullough pulled from? It is hard to find, you have to go to his paper here: https://focusfm.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Scand-J-Immunol-2022-Polykretis-Rational-harm‐benefit-assessments-by-age-group-are-required-for-continued-COVID‐191.pdf then to his references number 8 specifically, where you are then taken to this blog: 1616 Athlete Cardiac Arrests, Serious Issues, 1114 of Them Dead, Since COVID Injection - Real Science
Then if you read the causes of death, for all these top tier athletes, you see that many of them died of things like stomach cancer, or had good old fashioned heart attacks when they were in their 70's. The thing is anyone who was ever an "athlete" is listed as dying is included. Those 1101 athletes did not all die of myocarditis, nor even heart attacks. One surfer drowned, and the cause of death was Cardiopulmonary collapse secondary to drowning. I don't have time to actually do it, but it looks like the mean age is in the 50's. The thing is people eat this shit up. It sells because unless you actually read the reference, it seems pretty legit, a doctor posted it. Then another doctor retweeted it.

The reason the doctor above stated "athletes under 35" in the last 30 years, is because that was actually good science, Bille K, Figueiras D, Schamasch P, et al. Sudden cardiac death in athletes: the Lausanne recommendations. Eur J Cardiovasc Prev Rehabil. 2006;13:859-875.

These things are debunked because they are bullshit.

This is actually listed as one of the COVID related collapses that this doctor references:
Donald Parham (24) Los Angeles Chargers (NFL) tight end player collapsed in mid-air while taking a flying touchdown catch. He had received two Covid-19 vaccines and a booster. His arms were shaking as he was wheeled off. It appears clear that his left arm locked up before his helmet hit the ground – that seems to be why he didn’t handle the recovery well. The Chargers report he suffered a concussion, but the video tells a different story, a fraction of a second before his helmet touched down and his head suddenly threw back.

here is video of the injury:

That is what we call a concussion.
 
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TLDR20 said:
I understand in a vacuum. This incident didn’t occur in a vacuum. It is fine to “question everything” if when you ask the question you are willing and able to accept answers.

If I see a player get hit in the chest and then pass out and I hear they were in Vfib, which necessitated defibrillation, I’m going to assume it was CC. There is no reason to look for a zebra in a field that is full of horses.

As to some other things that were mentioned that must be brought up.

Why is the most common age for CC 14-18? Anyone want to hazard a guess? Because millions of kids play organized sports during that age range. That drops significantly at age 18, and even more so at age 22. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, it means the sample size drops.






Notice how that person quantified "athletes" and "athletes under 35". Subtle way to be confusing, but keep reading, I will explain.

Have you actually looked at the data that the good Dr. McCullough pulled from? It is hard to find, you have to go to his paper here: https://focusfm.gr/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Scand-J-Immunol-2022-Polykretis-Rational-harm‐benefit-assessments-by-age-group-are-required-for-continued-COVID‐191.pdf then to his references number 8 specifically, where you are then taken to this blog: 1616 Athlete Cardiac Arrests, Serious Issues, 1114 of Them Dead, Since COVID Injection - Real Science
Then if you read the causes of death, for all these top tier athletes, you see that many of them died of things like stomach cancer, or had good old fashioned heart attacks when they were in their 70's. The thing is anyone who was ever an "athlete" is listed as dying is included. Those 1101 athletes did not all die of myocarditis, nor even heart attacks. One surfer drowned, and the cause of death was Cardiopulmonary collapse secondary to drowning. I don't have time to actually do it, but it looks like the mean age is in the 50's. The thing is people eat this shit up. It sells because unless you actually read the reference, it seems pretty legit, a doctor posted it. Then another doctor retweeted it.

The reason the doctor above stated "athletes under 35" in the last 30 years, is because that was actually good science, Bille K, Figueiras D, Schamasch P, et al. Sudden cardiac death in athletes: the Lausanne recommendations. Eur J Cardiovasc Prev Rehabil. 2006;13:859-875.

These things are debunked because they are bullshit.

This is actually listed as one of the COVID related collapses that this doctor references:
Donald Parham (24) Los Angeles Chargers (NFL) tight end player collapsed in mid-air while taking a flying touchdown catch. He had received two Covid-19 vaccines and a booster. His arms were shaking as he was wheeled off. It appears clear that his left arm locked up before his helmet hit the ground – that seems to be why he didn’t handle the recovery well. The Chargers report he suffered a concussion, but the video tells a different story, a fraction of a second before his helmet touched down and his head suddenly threw back.

here is video of the injury:

That is what we call a concussion.
Click to expand...
Would you agree that you have your own biases? And that your're not a cardiologist?
 
All this talk has reminded me of growing up.

Every couple of weeks, my paramedic father would come home and sit down, stone-faced at the table.

"It happened again, guys. We got another call for a 14 year old, who went unresponsive due to a heart attack. A month ago was the 27 year old with the stroke. It was tragic- his completely healthy father died of SADS, which has been really prevalent lately. Bein a paramedic is really tough; it seems like every single week, we lose more and more young people, and I don't know if I can take it. I mean, a 17 year old girl in her sleep... well, that's just the way of the world."

Every season, in all sports, you'd see reports of another high-level athlete dying, watch a player die on live MNF- and we all knew it was just part of the human condition. The government said it was climate change, but we felt like that was silly. Sometimes, seemingly for no reason at all, thousands of people a year would die without warning. Thank goodness the healthcare community was there to help us through these hard times by explaining exactly what happened, each step of the way.

And that brings us to now. A lifetime of watching young healthy people die, and now a group of fringe conspiracy theorists who act like this hasn't been going on forever seem to focus on a specific time period as if it just began. No, for all of our adult lives- decades!- healthy athletic young men have been dying from idiopathic cardiomyopathies, and the healthcare community has always been at the forefront of predicting and explaining these deaths.

It's just so maddening that people think it started in 2021, for absolutely no reason.

(This fictional story is completely full of facts and I hope this story illustrates just how mad all of this makes me- you've reduced me to allegories to help mock this narrative.)
 
amlove21 said:
Would you agree that you have your own biases? And that your're not a cardiologist?
Click to expand...

Certainly. I am biased, for sure. But I cannot read a list like that and take away that all those people were victims of Covid vaccine injury… there isn’t evidence that any of them were. There literally is no evidence in that paper at all, other than that most of them played sports at some point.

Are you too biased to be capable of admitting that this particular list is garbage? When you can easily go through and find a hundred examples of people who died of cancer, or of people who hit their head, or fell off a roof, or committed suicide? It takes 5 mins to read through that list and you can methodically cross people off.

In the first 20 listed there are 3 cancers, and two clotting disorders related to factor v Leiden, and Mike leach who had a heart attack. 1/4 of them are easily explainable. Just by browsing for a minute.
 
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TLDR20 said:
Certainly. I am biased, for sure. But I cannot read a list like that and take away that all those people were victims of Covid vaccine injury… there isn’t evidence that any of them were. There literally is no evidence in that paper at all, other than that most of them played sports at some point.

Are you too biased to be capable of admitting that this particular list is garbage? When you can easily go through and find a hundred examples of people who died of cancer, or of people who hit their head, or fell off a roof, or committed suicide? It takes 5 mins to read through that list and you can methodically cross people off.

In the first 20 listed there are 3 cancers, and two clotting disorders related to factor v Leiden, and Mike leach who had a heart attack.
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So, you're not an expert, and you're biased. I'll agree that I am also biased (for funsies) and not an expert.

You can stop pretending to be, your opinion on this matter is exactly equal to mine- but it's not equal to the opinion of Dr. McCullough, who is an expert, and his conclusions on the issue are more relevant than yours.

That's how we play "scramble to the high ground of appeal to authority". And that was my original point about how COVID broke our communication, especially on this issue.
 
amlove21 said:
So, you're not an expert, and you're biased. I'll agree that I am also biased (for funsies) and not an expert.

You can stop pretending to be, your opinion on this matter is exactly equal to mine- but it's not equal to the opinion of Dr. McCullough, who is an expert, and his conclusions on the issue are more relevant than yours.

That's how we play "scramble to the high ground of appeal to authority". And that was my original point about how COVID broke our communication, especially on this issue.
Click to expand...

Cool.

Well for anyone else. Read the list. Read why many of those people actually died.
 
amlove21 said:
No one else is listening, bud. They're busy watching what's actually happening, not sticking their head in the sand.
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I’m listening to both sides here. Keeping vaccine related injury in the differential diagnosis is fine. But it is statistically more probable that this was a commotio cordis event versus an idiopathic response. I don’t know what your history with each other is, but this site has done well because we keep personal digs out of the conversations. You’re better than responses like this.
 
Stretcher Jockey said:
I’m listening to both sides here. Keeping vaccine related injury in the differential diagnosis is fine. But it is statistically more probable that this was a commotio cordis event versus an idiopathic response. I don’t know what your history with each other is, but this site has done well because we keep personal digs out of the conversations. You’re better than responses like this.
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We actually have a good personal history, considering all things. I have had drinks with @TLDR20 and I’ll be the first person there if he needs help.

I appreciate what you’re saying, but I’ve withstood 2 years of mocking, dismissal, accusations and the like.

“Masks save lives.”
“The vaccines stop transmission.”
“Vaccines are safe and effective.”

No more. If you’re saying these things- you deserve personal respect, but not public allowance of nonsense. What you say in a public forum has consequence.

I stand by what I said, and I think you’re mistaking “Aggressively defending a position” and “Making a personal attack.”
 
Stretcher Jockey said:
I’m listening to both sides here. Keeping vaccine related injury in the differential diagnosis is fine. But it is statistically more probable that this was a commotio cordis event versus an idiopathic response. I don’t know what your history with each other is, but this site has done well because we keep personal digs out of the conversations. You’re better than responses like this.
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Appreciate the concern but please utilize “report a post” function or take it to PM. Chiming in publicly only exasperates a potentially volatile situation…as the only active staff member, less in-your-face moderation and more ‘behind the scenes’ is the strategy this lone mod has been practicing.
 

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