Israel and Iran

Why did Hamas attack, and why now? What does it hope to gain?

In hindsight, the drivers of Hamas’s startlingly well-planned, land-sea-air attack on Israel on Saturday were in plain sight.

The operation reflects a pattern of four wars and regular outbreaks of violence between Israel and Hamas militants in Gaza since 2005, when Israel withdrew its military posts and forcibly removed 9,000 Israeli settlers from the territory.

Each time Hamas has launched rockets at Israel or engaged in similar provocations, it has drawn heavy retaliation from Israel in the form of major bombings on the Gaza Strip. Hamas, however, seems to regard this as a cost of doing business.

An important factor motivating Hamas towards violence is that it has to watch its flanks. Other smaller, but increasingly extremist groups, are contesting its authority in Gaza, notably Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

These groups have, at times, independently launched rocket attacks on Israel, which bring retribution on the whole territory.

On top of this, the Israeli government formed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last December is the most right wing in Israeli history. This government has made no secret of its desire to annex the West Bank and has permitted significant expansion of Jewish settlements in the territory, which are illegal under international law.

That has led to conflict between settlers and young West Bank Palestinians, who in the past year have formed a loose grouping known as the “Lions’ Den”.


Read more: Why the violence between Israel and the Palestinians may be entering a devastating new phase


This grouping, comprising independent militants with apparently no central control, has scant regard for the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank and is led by the octogenarian Mahmoud Abbas. The Palestinian Authority has little real administrative, security or moral authority in the territory.

The “Lions’ Den” also vies with Gaza militant groups for influence among Palestinian youth – both in Gaza and the West Bank.

Added to this, a minister in Netanyahu’s coalition, Itamar Ben-Gvir, has visited the Temple Mount, the site of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, one of the holiest shrines in Islam. This was considered a provocation by all Palestinians – both in the West Bank and Gaza. Further angering Palestinians, Israeli tourists also travelled to the site over the recent Sukkot holiday.

A visit to the Temple Mount by Ariel Sharon in 2000, then the leader of the opposition in Israel’s government, is generally regarded as the spark that ignited the Second Intifada from 2000-2005.

Under an agreement predating Israel’s foundation, Jordan has custodianship of the Al-Aqsa religious complex. Israel aimed to respect Jordan’s role when it signed the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty in 1994. But Palestinians see the visits by Israeli ministers and non-Muslim tourists as disrespectful of the sanctity of the site and counter to this undertaking.

Hamas has also claimed these visits have led to the desecration of the Al-Aqsa site, an argument obviously aimed at winning support from Muslims throughout the Arab and wider Islamic world.


Read more: After a shocking Hamas assault on Israel, both sides brace for the devastating fallout


Why attack now?​

Significantly, Hamas has named its action “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood”. This provides some clues to the primary reason for striking at this time, which emphasises what Hamas sees as Israeli acts of desecration of a holy Islamic site.

However, an additional motivating factor was likely the increasing tendency of Arab states to make peace agreements with Israel, as evidenced by the 2020 Abraham Accords, involving the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco.


There has recently been strong speculation that Saudi Arabia is about to make its own agreement with Israel.

This is of great concern to all Palestinians, not just those in the West Bank, as it further reduces pressure on Israel to reach a settlement with them. Netanyahu has made clear in his public statements that he prioritises peace with Arab states over eventual peace with the Palestinians.

Hamas does not recognise Israel, but has said it would observe a truce if Israel withdrew to its 1967 borders. Israel would be unlikely to take Hamas’s word on this and withdraw as demanded. But there would be even less chance of that condition ever being realised if Saudi Arabia were to conclude its own deal with Israel.

Another aspect of the timing is that it coincides almost precisely with the 50th anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur or Ramadan War in October 1973, when Egypt and Syria attacked Israel together. The significance of a Palestinian entity being able to surprise Israel in the same way would not be lost on Hamas.

So there were several objectives for Hamas to launch an attack at this time – and possibly a combination of them.

Hamas is likely to gain much sympathy from the wider Arab world, but little in the way of material assistance. Hamas’s military operation will likely cause Saudi Arabia to hold back from normalising relations with Israel for now. That said, it’s unlikely any of the Arab states that have signed the Abraham Accords will withdraw from them now in protest over Israeli retaliation against Gaza.

Where the conflict is headed?​

Where the conflict is headed is unclear. The Hezbollah militant group in Lebanon has already fired on positions in Israel’s north. But the extent to which it will become seriously involved will depend on its sponsor, Iran.

Tehran has generally been seen to want to keep Hezbollah’s considerable rocket and missile strength in reserve in case of an Israeli strike on Iranian nuclear facilities.

There is also the question of whether “Lions’ Den” militants in the West Bank will launch their own attacks, effectively creating a third front against Israel. And a possible fourth front could come from attacks on Jewish Israelis by Arab Israelis living in Israel.

US President Joe Biden has already promised support for Israel, so there can be little doubt Israel will eventually get on top of these challenges. Netanyahu has warned of a long war, but it may prove reasonably short if Israel goes all out in its retaliation.

The main constraint on Israeli action against Gaza will be the fact that an unknown number of Israeli citizens have been kidnapped by Hamas militants and taken to the strip. Indiscriminate Israeli bombing would certainly put those lives at risk.

Israel will also be reluctant to put its defence forces in Gaza because of the risk of heavy casualties. However, it may send special forces if it gains intelligence on the whereabouts of its kidnapped citizens.

A further risk for Israel in its retaliation is that too brutal an assault on Gaza could turn Western opinion against it. So far, however, Western governments are strongly supportive of Israel and unsympathetic towards Hamas.

The overall lesson for Israel is that it has to develop a policy for managing the Palestinians living in the areas it controls.

The current situation, in which hardline militants are contained in Gaza, while Israeli forces curtail the actions of Palestinians living in Israel and the West Bank, has suited the Israeli government for many years. It has been able to ignore Arab and international pressure to negotiate a two-state solution or to acquiesce in a one-state solution.

The real significance of Hamas’s operation is that such a non-policy can no longer continue.
 
Listening to Megyn Kelly today on sirius, she had Sen. Ted Cruz on. He said something that blew my mind so I looked it up. In 2021, Democrats voted for tens and hundreds of millions in aid to Palestine knowing it would fund Ham-ass. Ted Cruz got laughed at when he claimed it would lead to the deaths of Americans.

Sen. Cruz, Colleagues Slam Biden Admin for Renewed Aid Despite Palestinian Authority Funding for Terrorists | U.S. Senator Ted Cruz of Texas

Ted Cruz Says 'Americans Will Die' From Biden-Approved Aid to Palestinians
 
Before I shut myself down to go into study mode today, one last point I'd like to make. With all the tunnel activity from the Palestinian side and the news today or yesterday that they expect Hamas to be in hiding within Israel, why do they not have secret tunnels going way into Gaza? I know it's probably illegal in international law or something but who cares anyhow? So are the settlements in W Bank.

I hope the Israelis have war gamed a scenario like this with tunnels being way further into their territory than expected, and a similar attack happening deep into the country. Israel should have no problem making a similar tunnel network of their own, and of course more strategic and built better.
 
Before I shut myself down to go into study mode today, one last point I'd like to make. With all the tunnel activity from the Palestinian side and the news today or yesterday that they expect Hamas to be in hiding within Israel, why do they not have secret tunnels going way into Gaza? I know it's probably illegal in international law or something but who cares anyhow? So are the settlements in W Bank.

I hope the Israelis have war gamed a scenario like this with tunnels being way further into their territory than expected, and a similar attack happening deep into the country. Israel should have no problem making a similar tunnel network of their own, and of course more strategic and built better.
I have no idea whether Israel has tunnels into Gaza or not, but I suspect they don’t. Tunnels are extremely expensive; one of the reasons Gaza is broke all the time (aside from rampant corruption) is they’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars on tunnels.

They also tend to be single-use and easily counterable. They can be death traps for eh infiltrating force. And you don’t rely need tunnels when you have brigades of tanks and complete control of the air and sea.

I could see a situation where Israel maybe did some counter tunneling into an existing terror tunnel.

That said, before this weekend I would have dismissed “mass Hamas paragliding insertion” as highly unlikely as well. I guess we’ll see.
 
Listening to Megyn Kelly today on sirius, she had Sen. Ted Cruz on. He said something that blew my mind so I looked it up. In 2021, Democrats voted for tens and hundreds of millions in aid to Palestine knowing it would fund Ham-ass. Ted Cruz got laughed at when he claimed it would lead to the deaths of Americans.

Sen. Cruz, Colleagues Slam Biden Admin for Renewed Aid Despite Palestinian Authority Funding for Terrorists | U.S. Senator Ted Cruz of Texas

Ted Cruz Says 'Americans Will Die' From Biden-Approved Aid to Palestinians
America’s good intentions have cause a lot of problems in the world. This is another good example.
 
I'm going to "say" the quiet part out loud. This is unending. Period, and this problem goes back decades and decades. We all know this. Hamas and the Palestinians are not going to stop, Hezbollah and Iran are not going to stop, this is human nature going back to the first civilizations. The behavior and circumstances are not new.

Christ, painting bomb shelters to look like caterpillars to help children cope? Can anyone here fathom such a thing? Every home has a shelter? Where else on the planet does this happen? Imagine that in America or anywhere else. But there is a way forward.

Genocide.

"Holy fuck, A-dub, are you advocating genocide? Isn't that why Israel was founded?"

No, I'm not advocating killing every Jew, Palestinian, or Iranian, but that's about the only way this ends. Any "peace" deal will be temporary, history has shown us this. So you either kill off one side or subjugate them, otherwise we'll be right back here having the same discussion some other day.

"Peace in the Middle East" is an illusion unless you kill your way out of the problem.
 
Christ, painting bomb shelters to look like caterpillars to help children cope? Can anyone here fathom such a thing? Every home has a shelter? Where else on the planet does this happen? Imagine that in America or anywhere else.

I know I have those pictures somewhere. I’ll see if I can find them when I’m on my flight in a few minutes.

I think I also have a picture of the bunker/bomb shelter/day care center that was at a different kibbutz. It not only had a reinforced roof to help with rockets, their doors were reinforced. Not against rockers, but because the Israelis know, through bitter experience, that if Palestinian terrorists ever got in, the children wouldn’t be collateral damage, they’d be a primary target.

…just like what happened this time.
 
As I said in another post. This only ends one way. What is trashy is that our college campuses have become a have for hatred, and they have been this way for a very long time. The rabbit talks about the Chinese Communists and also the Russian Communists infiltrating our social institutions. Well so have the Arabs, and this has obviously been by design.

But someone explain to me how someone holding an alphabet flag can be so brainwashed that they march for peace with Palestinians in any western country? Or how about Mia K out there stanning for Palestinians saying she mourns all the dead but stands with the oppressed? But really she has a worm in her brain that turns on that just hates Jews. It's like she forgot that the people who are committing these atrocities still have a price on her head.



Safe to say, we have been infiltrated, we have thousands of illegals crossing daily, many of whom are Arab. What do you think they're here to do?

The Gazans have been brainwashed for decades to be forever refugees and to be oppressed, I seriously wonder if the Democrats are taking notes from Hamas on how to keep people down or if it is the other way. Years ago when Hamas became a political party and took seats in the PA parliament this went off like Donkey Kong, it set Gaza back.

A post above mentioned the "annexation of the West Bank"? The West Bank was ceded to Israel by Jordan decades ago now. There is nothing to annex really. The fact that Israel outlawed settlement of the West Bank for a long time was more a way to attempt peace with the forever refugee err I mean born terrorists.

Israel has tried peace, it protects Palestinians more than it protects Israelis in a sense. There are numerous videos of Palestinian protests with a counter protest by Israelis and the police beat up on the Israeli counter protest. They say the Netanyahu government is ultra right wing, but it beats up on the most conservative elements of its society.

But let's just be clear. Hamas is a cancer, a gangrenous limb, it will need to be cleaved off. And even then someone else will probably just take its place and continue this. The difference today? Well, Jordan and Egypt don't want to get their ass kicked again. So there will no surprises from them.

Watched this video this morning, the depravity of what is described is not close to Hamas of 20 years ago. This is straight ISIS level shit. We've gone medieval, I think the only way to fix this probably what A dub said...but then a Palestinian who may grow up loving Israel 20 years from now will come to a college campus in the US or the UK and get radicalized.



ETA: Per ISW, Hamas was still conducting over the fence incursions yesterday. The latest into Rahat.

 
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@ThunderHorse

Part of me ranting and raving about commies, is because I don't really know how to classify people who hate our nation, values, and do not want to assimilate. It's hard for the rabbit to quantify a name for people who hate and are trying to dismantle western society and values. (TLDR Rabbit R dumb :D)

You're on target in how colleges are grounds for radicalization. Colleges are also a way for these 'groups' to infiltrate a town/culture/society, that has been largely free of their influence. I don't know if it's because there is a pre-existing cadre of sympathetic useful idiots there or if they network. I just know that they are a threat.

For the board:
Regarding what's happening in Israel, this shit might be coming here. Weakness led to this. Placating an enemy led to this. That said, I'm not holding my breath for liberal civvies to open their eyes until it's their ass on the chopping block.
 
In the US and much of the western world we have Hamas sympathizers in our govt's at various levels. We also have certain ethnic populations that are decidedly pro Hamas and are celebrating these events. Given what's happening in Israel and our experiences in the Middle East, why should we expect to be treated differently?

Why are we as a society placating a culture that is an anathema to the foundational beliefs of our nations and the western world?

Food for thought.
 
Tense exchange today.

Person: "We really need to hear Hamas and figure out what they want. I think they were lashing out and deserve to be heard. Israel is the real enemy here."

Me: "Israel need to rake Gaza into the Med with such fury and finality that the Palestinians will talk about what happened there for the next 10,000 years."

Person with a gasp, "Oh my God, what did you say??"

Me: "Did I stutter??"
 
Tense exchange today.

Person: "We really need to hear Hamas and figure out what they want. I think they were lashing out and deserve to be heard. Israel is the real enemy here."

Me: "Israel need to rake Gaza into the Med with such fury and finality that the Palestinians will talk about what happened there for the next 10,000 years."

Person with a gasp, "Oh my God, what did you say??"

Me: "Did I stutter??"
Agreed. After reading about some of the almost unimaginable atrocities that took place, I have no patience for anyone’s “yeah but…” right now.

This incident has caused me to do some much overdue reading. In a nutshell I learned:
- Hamas is an organization (although usually not very organized) that literally exists with a mission to wipe out of the existence of Israel
- Iran was most definitely involved in training/coordination. The OPSEC was way too tight and the strike too coordinated.
- Iran is/was concerned about a potential agreement between Saudi Arabia And Israel.
- Israel is surrounded by enemies and essentially has not choice to be respond hard and fast
- The hostages are a complication for Israel, and sadly, I thing most of them are going to die. The rest will likely be traded back to Israel in some type of prisoner exchange.
 
Agreed. After reading about some of the almost unimaginable atrocities that took place, I have no patience for anyone’s “yeah but…” right now.

This incident has caused me to do some much overdue reading. In a nutshell I learned:
- Hamas is an organization (although usually not very organized) that literally exists with a mission to wipe out of the existence of Israel
- Iran was most definitely involved in training/coordination. The OPSEC was way too tight and the strike too coordinated.
- Iran is/was concerned about a potential agreement between Saudi Arabia And Israel.
- Israel is surrounded by enemies and essentially has not choice to be respond hard and fast
- The hostages are a complication for Israel, and sadly, I thing most of them are going to die. The rest will likely be traded back to Israel in some type of prisoner exchange.

I have further reduced it to the lowest common denominator. When people ask, what about the women and children in Gaza? Now my reply is simply a shrug. If I say anything, I ask why Hamas has to put their military headquarters in the hospital? Why do they use human shields? Why do they set up bases inside civilian infrastructure? Not my problem. If Hamas wants to get stupid, their people will pay the price. That's the way it's been for thousands of years, that's the way it will always be.
 
Domestic terrorists and activists siding with overseas terrorists and activists. What could possibly go wrong?

Liberals need to wake the fuck up. Not Conservative? Fine. Support celebrity causes the Left promotes? You’re no better than those you support, you’re now a terrorist. You want peace? Remove organizations like Hamas. If not? Reap it.

You will only seat people at the peace table once you’ve delivered enough crushing violence and loss. Don’t believe me? Can I interest you in history…?
 
Looks like Israel and Iran are getting pretty saucy.

Reports of explosions at government buildings in Tehran.

Links:

Drones attack military plant in Iran: Tehran

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Iran raised fighter jets over the capital Tehran. There are unconfirmed explosions there as well. <a href="https://t.co/hRje3xwuOp">pic.twitter.com/hRje3xwuOp</a></p>&mdash; NOËL 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) <a href=" ">January 28, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Indeed. Maybe because I don’t watch the news that much but I was surprised that a war started all of a sudden. Do you guys think that the U.S millitary will send SOCOM units there to fight the Hamas?
 
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