Jamal Khashoggi thread (murdered journalist)

So in response to @amlove21 when it comes to morality.

Jamal isn't an American. He is a Saudi citizen, whom was also a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Murder, is wrong. So whilst I can be mad, not outraged, because outrage needs to be saved...although in our peak outrage culture we have to be outraged about everything.

We have arms deals with the Saudis, we are dependent upon them to keep the spice flow so that the commodity price is within a certain price point. And our oil companies would love it if they stopped flooding the market because they make the most money when the average price per bbl is between 90-110. When it gets over 110 the price at the pump gets kind of insane. So there's my political reasons for why we should have completely ignored the situation.

Now, my personal opinion has already been displayed. This dude had blood on his hands. The best way I can describe this is the folks at home don't really get annoyed at gang violence until it touches their woodchip box (since you know sand is dangerous these days). And I've also clearly stated that this is just Turkey and Saudi Arabia going at it and we shouldn't put our dick in between them. Erdogan, whom he became cozy with is a clear enemy of his former employer. [Erdogan has continuously rounded up journalists and non-loyalists since the failed coup attempt] This is legit like being a Blood and then joining the Crips, he's been a marked man for a very long time. Now, my question goes to: what did the Saudis have on him that he willingly went to a place where he'd never leave freely from again (smarter to have taken him in chains and tried for treason in KSA).

It goes to my prevailing opinion that we should have never been involved in Syria.

Now let's address the way the POTUS has handled this: like with many things, a complete flub up on the old twatter. So in effect we have wasted political capital here.

And why I've said publish the evidence? Don't go to the media and open channel this crap: "We have the evidence". Either send it to your allies and take their response, or publish it. I know @policemedic has stated I don't have the right to it. Of course I don't. That's not my point. I'm also not a freak and I really don't want to and won't listen to it. But for the most part this has all been kabuki theater. Kind of like red lines and stuff.
 
No one would care about Turkey and Saudi if it wasn't for their strategic location and resources. Venezuela is heading towards a famine and where is that outrage? How many thousands have already died and how many will die because of that government? We're expected to lose our minds over one dead journalist?

I've read the entire thread, read both sides, and I still don't understand why this is even a discussion.
 
I like the discussion as it pertains to the legal challenges/issues, from an analytical standpoint.

I was more outraged when two countries used weapons grade WMD's to kill targets in public places in foreign countries.....one having collateral damage of innocents, but those two incidents were not in the media lime light that long and North Korea and Russia have just ignored the accusations.
 
I like the discussion as it pertains to the legal challenges/issues, from an analytical standpoint.

I was more outraged when two countries used weapons grade WMD's to kill targets in public places in foreign countries.....one having collateral damage of innocents, but those two incidents were not in the media lime light that long and North Korea and Russia have just ignored the accusations.
That's interesting. Can I ask why? Isn't that essentially the same thing- one state killing members of that state?

We know Russia and NK have WMD; if we aren't the world police, and (I am not saying this is your stance) we don't care about humans getting killed as long as they aren't American humans. shouldn't we ignore those two as well?
 
No one would care about Turkey and Saudi if it wasn't for their strategic location and resources. Venezuela is heading towards a famine and where is that outrage? How many thousands have already died and how many will die because of that government? We're expected to lose our minds over one dead journalist?

I've read the entire thread, read both sides, and I still don't understand why this is even a discussion.
I think at this point it's 2 things- a moral/ethical question that doesn't need to be explored any more (if you don't care about the person getting murdered for whatever reason, then there you go), and a misstep by the administration to capitalize on political gain.

If you don't care about 1 human, I can understand why you don't care about any number of humans in any other space- Venezuela, Yemen, Africa, Chicago, etc.

So with that out of the way, the only real issue worth talking about is how poorly the admin handled it domestically. But if that horse isn't dead, it's fucking close.
 
I have never said lives don't matter if they aren't Americans, I have put my life on the line for non-Americans...I have never said Saudi Arabia was not wrong for killing Jamal Khashoggi. I just don't wish to get into a political debate on how we should be reacting or not reacting, I don't think my thoughts, or the worlds thoughts, are going to change how the Saudi Royal family thinks or does business.
 
I have never said lives don't matter if they aren't Americans, I have put my life on the line for non-Americans...I have never said Saudi Arabia was not wrong for killing Jamal Khashoggi. I just don't wish to get into a political debate on how we should be reacting or not reacting, I don't think my thoughts, or the worlds thoughts, are going to change how the Saudi Royal family thinks or does business.
Ok- I didn't mean you specifically, I was referring to the overall bend of the thread in regards to state sponsored murder.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
 
Neither the Islamic State or AQ is a sovereign country....we weren't talking about the morality of the act (State sanctioned murder) but the treaties/laws that were used/abused to allow it to happen.

Check.

As for my previous question about treaties and laws being different, when I asked the question I was thinking about it within the American context with regard to treaties becoming federal law according to our Constitution, not the world at large. Sorry for being unclear.

As for your question about what treaties this may violate, the only one that immediately jumps out to me as a viable option is the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, of which both Turkey and SA are, currently, signatories.

Realistically, I doubt that Turkey wants to rock the boat with the Saudi's, especially with the current state of their economy.
 
I'd wager that one of the crimes these 5 cats are guilty of is having additional details of the incident. In their situation they are probably part guilty and part loose-end
Gotta tie up all the loose ends in a case like this.

They should sentence all five of them to a 24/7 suicide watch at the Metropolitan Correctional Center
 
🤔

Trusting Saudi Arabia as I do, I’m confident they are executing the people directly responsible for the decision of his death. Saudis sentence 5 to death for Jamal Khashoggi's killing

I think they got the guys, because they knew who the guys were. They put them on trial, declared them guilty. But they will execute 15 petty criminals that are being held instead. Those responsible if they didn't have titles got a title, a new name, and a raise.
 
The whole thing is so orchestrated; it makes me feel dirty just reading about it.

White House praises Saudis for death sentences in Khashoggi's murder
This is an important step in holding those responsible for this terrible crime accountable, and we encourage Saudi Arabia to continue with a fair and transparent judicial process,' a senior administration official told DailyMail.com.

But the two most senior Saudi officials implicated in Khashoggi's death, including a former top adviser to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who's the de facto ruler of the country, were cleared of wrongdoing.

Additionally, the court ruled Khashoggi's murder was not premeditated, which is the argument pushed by Prince Mohammed's government.
 
This is where SA WITSEC takes pictures of the bodies with ketchup all over the place, gives them a new home, and a ton of money to never return.
 
From the Dec. 23 article: "Khashoggi, who was a resident of the U.S., had walked into his country's consulate on Oct. 2, 2018, for an appointment to pick up documents that would allow him to marry. He never walked out, and his body has not been found.

A team of 15 Saudi agents had flown to Turkey to meet Khashoggi inside the consulate. They included a forensic doctor, intelligence and security officers and individuals who worked for the crown prince's office, according to Callamard's independent investigation....The 101-page report released this year by Callamard, the U.N. special rapporteur for extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions, included details from the audio Turkish authorities shared with her. She reported hearing Saudi agents waiting for Khashoggi to arrive and one of them asking how they would carry out the body."O_o

That's some crazy shit...

And now: "Saudi Arabia initially offered shifting accounts about Khashoggi's disappearance. As international pressure mounted because of the Turkish leaks, the kingdom eventually settled on the explanation that he was killed by rogue officials in a brawl."

Well....there we have it...

Really fucked up that our gov't would look the other way. Can't wait to buy an electric car.
 
From the Dec. 23 article: "Khashoggi, who was a resident of the U.S., had walked into his country's consulate on Oct. 2, 2018, for an appointment to pick up documents that would allow him to marry. He never walked out, and his body has not been found.

A team of 15 Saudi agents had flown to Turkey to meet Khashoggi inside the consulate. They included a forensic doctor, intelligence and security officers and individuals who worked for the crown prince's office, according to Callamard's independent investigation....The 101-page report released this year by Callamard, the U.N. special rapporteur for extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions, included details from the audio Turkish authorities shared with her. She reported hearing Saudi agents waiting for Khashoggi to arrive and one of them asking how they would carry out the body."O_o

That's some crazy shit...

And now: "Saudi Arabia initially offered shifting accounts about Khashoggi's disappearance. As international pressure mounted because of the Turkish leaks, the kingdom eventually settled on the explanation that he was killed by rogue officials in a brawl."

Well....there we have it...

Really fucked up that our gov't would look the other way. Can't wait to buy an electric car.
What should Trump do?
It happened on Saudi Territory, to a Saudi citizen, by the Saudi government.
 
We don't need their oil anymore.
Which is another reason to bring folks home.

Agreed...."America produced 18% of the world's oil last year, compared with Saudi Arabia's 12%, Russia's 11% and Canada's 5%. As a result, the United States produced more oil than it imported in 2018. ... During that 10-year period, U.S. crude oil exports have increased 69-fold to 2 million barrels per day." Why the U.S. is less dependent than ever on Saudi oil

While it's not all about oil, we need to stop saying that it is.
 
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