Jamal Khashoggi thread (murdered journalist)

[policemedic]

Well, we'll just have different opinions about this.

No, please enlighten me. A Saudi citizen was killed on Saudi soil in Turkey, and you think you’re entitled to hear his last moments because it’s “evidence” (a word that clearly means different things to you and I). I’d love to hear why you think you have a right to anything in this matter.

 

[Gordus]

Overall a pretty sloppy

FISTFIGHT

I feel that is an incredibly generous understatement.

 

[ThunderHorse]

No, please enlighten me. A Saudi citizen was killed on Saudi soil in Turkey, and you think you’re you’re entitled to hear his last moments because it’s “evidence” (a word that clearly means different things to you and I). I’d love to hear why you think you have a right to anything in this matter.

My opinion, throughout this whole affair, has been trying to figure out why our government cares at all about this and why Americans are seemingly so WOKE about this. Kashoggi, a former Saudi Royal insider crossed the wrong dude...previous post, article posted by Dame or Racing Kitty (I forget) gives us the background on him. He became a member/advocate for the Muslim Brotherhood (a terrorist organization), and then became an advisor/confidant of Erdogan (Who ain't no saint). So, why do we give a shit at the real politik level? Here is another article by the Brookings Institute highlighting his connections to the Muslim Brotherhood. Haaretz on links to Palestinian Terrorism. Another interesting article from Spectator: Why Trump is right to stand by Saudi Arabia | Spectator USA

Do I think he was murdered, that fact I'm pretty sure of. When it comes to evidence supposedly recorded by an apple watch that was then somehow sent to Turkish intelligence? That would be pretty impressive and the Turks through the Media are like "WE HAVE EVIDENCE, WE SENT IT ALL OVER THE WORLD". Ok, post it. That's my opinion.

 

[SpitfireV]

My opinion, throughout this whole affair, has been trying to figure out why our government cares at all about this and why Americans are seemingly so WOKE about this. Kashoggi, a former Saudi Royal insider crossed the wrong dude...previous post, article posted by Dame or Racing Kitty (I forget) gives us the background on him. He became a member/advocate for the Muslim Brotherhood (a terrorist organization), and then became an advisor/confidant of Erdogan (Who ain't no saint). So, why do we give a shit at the real politik level? Here is another article by the Brookings Institute highlighting his connections to the Muslim Brotherhood. Haaretz on links to Palestinian Terrorism. Another interesting article from Spectator: Why Trump is right to stand by Saudi Arabia | Spectator USA

Do I think he was murdered, that fact I'm pretty sure of. When it comes to evidence supposedly recorded by an apple watch that was then somehow sent to Turkish intelligence? That would be pretty impressive and the Turks through the Media are like "WE HAVE EVIDENCE, WE SENT IT ALL OVER THE WORLD". Ok, post it. That's my opinion.

So your argument is basically "America shouldn't care but I'm curious"?

 

[Blizzard]

I've revisited this thread a bunch of times. I don't know if it's a result of reading @racing_kitty 's article early on (which was a great post) or something else but, try as I might, I just struggle to give a shit about this guy or the story.

 

[Kraut783]

I am interested in this case, but more from a rule of law standpoint. Does Turkey have any jurisdiction in this murder? A consulate or Embassy property is sovereign soil of that nation, so the murder happened in Saudi......no Turkey jurisdiction...very interesting to me overall. Unless Turkey can prove he was taken by force outside the consulate. But do I, have any right to hear the tape or know the details of the investigation....no.

Do I, as a Police Detective in one jurisdiction, have the right to see or hear any evidence of a investigation in another jurisdiction...no. I can wait like everyone else to see what comes out at the trial, a pubic forum.

 

[SpitfireV]

I am interested in this case, but more from a rule of law standpoint. Does Turkey have any jurisdiction in this murder? A consulate or Embassy property is sovereign soil of that nation, so the murder happened in Saudi......no Turkey jurisdiction...very interesting to me overall. Unless Turkey can prove he was taken by force outside the consulate. But do I, have any right to hear the tape or know the details of the investigation....no.

Do I, as a Police Detective in one jurisdiction, have the right to see or hear any evidence of a investigation in another jurisdiction...no. I can wait like everyone else to see what comes out at the trial, a pubic forum.

I was interested myself. Years ago I asked a cop here who worked with dips and he said it was a "grey area and noone is quite sure." He'd been given the go-ahead to arrest on the ground of this embassy by the embassy staff.

Found this though. Applies to the UK but I'm sure principals are similar worldwide.

While diplomatic premises in the UK are part of UK territory, they are inviolable and may not be entered without the consent of the Ambassador or Head of Mission. (See DPA 1964 section 2(1) and Schedule 3). Any offences committed in diplomatic premises in the UK are triable under the ordinary principles of English law, subject to the principles of diplomatic immunity for those who have it. Those who do not have this status (whatever their nationality) can be prosecuted as normal, as for example happened in the case of the terrorists who seized the Iranian embassy in London in 1980.

Diplomatic Immunity and Diplomatic Premises | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[medicchick]

Sorry, what position are you in to determine if it's real or not?

I am in no way trying to defend Thunderhorse but if you mean the pictures being fake the paper printed a retraction about them. I just wanted you to get an answer.

 

[SpitfireV]

I am in no way trying to defend Thunderhorse but if you mean the pictures being fake the paper printed a retraction about them. I just wanted you to get an answer.

Thanks! But I was meaning the recordings.

 

[medicchick]

Thanks! But I was meaning the recordings.

Gotcha. I was having a "discussion" earlier with someone about the photos, they refused to read the retraction.

I've heard and seen enough people die I for one have no desire to hear/see any recordings that may exist.

 

[Kraut783]

I was interested myself. Years ago I asked a cop here who worked with dips and he said it was a "grey area and noone is quite sure." He'd been given the go-ahead to arrest on the ground of this embassy by the embassy staff.

Found this though. Applies to the UK but I'm sure principals are similar worldwide.



Diplomatic Immunity and Diplomatic Premises | The Crown Prosecution Service

difference is, the embassy in London was overtaken by outside forces.....so the host country would certainly have jurisdiction. Not so in this case.

also "He'd been given the go-ahead to arrest on the ground of this embassy by the embassy staff" key thing there is the embassy staff allowed the arrest.

 

[SpitfireV]

difference is, the embassy in London was overtaken by outside forces.....so the host country would certainly have jurisdiction. Not so in this case.

That's only a high profile example of an offence to get the point across, though.

 

[SaintKP]

I think diplomatic immunity applies due to the sovereignty of embassies, and besides what are the Jordanians going to do if they feel strongly enough about it or us for that matter? Aside from diplomatic rah-rah and condemnations.

 

[Kraut783]

Understood SpitfireV, but...if the country of the embassy or consulate does not consent to the host country...the treaties are pretty inviolate. If it wasn't...the cold war would have been a lot different.

 

[amlove21]

The fact that the president admits to not listening to the tape verifies undoubtedly that there IS a tape. All intelligence reporting and verified sourcing confirms these events did in fact happen. Not a lot to be discussed, really. Anyone arguing that this event is a fake?

Spin this however it needs to be so it aligns with your value set, but this journalist was apprehended and brutally murdered at the order of Saudi Arabia. If the CIA is to be believed, that order came from the crown prince, who our administration won’t condemn cause... reasons.


How you square the ordered killing and dismemberment of another human is on you.

Moral relativism on full display in some arguments here.

 

[Box]

Maybe these guys were conducting a kill/capture CONOP that had been approved through proper channels and they just failed to consult the USA first.

Maybe those damn Arabians are just being the same murderous thugs that they have been for a thousand years.

Maybe we should just go apologize to them for our constant interference in world affairs.

The current POTUS has no road to victory here - the last guy went on a world wide apology tour because America is constantly doing the very thing that we are now DEMANDING that the new guy runs out to do. Americans did a whole lot of "no blood for oil" protesting the FIRST time we put troops on Saudi soil (even though it was Iraqi oil we were protesting). I'm just not sure where I should focus my outrage.
The Saudis killed a Saudi in Turkey - but he worked with the US media so that means I need to be outraged that free-speech is under assault - I just want to display the appropriate levels of moral outrage so I can maintain a low hypocrisy level during the Thanksgiving Holiday.
I dont want to feel guilty about the murder of one innocent cultural icon while I am eating my turkey and cranberries to celebrate my nations triumph over a different innocent cultural group.

Otherwise, we should immediately assume our role as Team America: World Police and bring Saudi Arabia to justice.
Lets fuck them up bad and then take their oil as punishment - then the POTUS cant hide behind his excuse that the Saudis will raise global oil prices if Team America: World Police start meddling in their business.

Please someone tell me how to be a good citizen with regard to this bloody scandal !!!

 

[AWP]

Who do I have to kill in order to place @Box in charge for 30 days?

 

[Muppet]

Maybe these guys where conducting a kill/capture CONOP that had been approved through proper channels and they just failed to consult the USA first.

Maybe those damn Arabians are just being the same murderous thugs that they have been for a thousand years.

Maybe we should just go apologize to them for our constant interference in world affairs.

The current POTUS has no road to victory here - the last guy went on a world wide apology tour because America is constantly doing the very thing that we are now DEMANDING that the new guy runs out to do. Americans did a whole lot of "no blood for oil" protesting the FIRST time we put troops on Saudi soil (even though it was Iraqi oil we were protesting). I'm just not sure where I should focus my outrage.
The Saudis killed a Saudi in Turkey - but he worked with the US media so that means I need to be outraged that free-speech is under assault - I just want to display the appropriate levels of moral outrage so I can maintain a low hypocrisy level during the Thanksgiving Holiday.
I dont want to feel guilty about the murder of one innocent cultural icon while I am eating my turkey and cranberries to celebrate my nations triumph over a different innocent cultural group.

Otherwise, we should immediately assume our role as Team America: World Police and bring Saudi Arabia to justice.
Lets fuck them up bad and then take their oil as punishment - then the POTUS cant hide behind his excuse that the Saudis will raise global oil prices if Team America: World Police start meddling in their business.

Please someone tell me how to be a good citizen with regard to this bloody scandal !!!

This completes me. Why should we give a fuck.

 

[SaintKP]

Moral relativism on full display in some arguments here

Not to potentially derail the thread but I think everyone here can agree what happened is wrong, but the question lies in why should we be up in arms? More heinous stuff happens on a day to day and night to night basis in *pick your 3rd world country* but we go on with our lives drinking Starbucks and face timing whoever. But now that it's a journalist that wasn't even American we need to grab the pitchforks and demand retribution? Why?


I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Kraut783]

Heinous thing happen in US cities across America, murders, rape, dismemberments...etc. Been working them for 30 years....so yeah, this murder is just another one that has my law of order interests peaked...but that's about it.