Jamal Khashoggi thread (murdered journalist)

Not to potentially derail the thread but I think everyone here can agree what happened is wrong, but the question lies in why should we be up in arms? More heinous stuff happens on a day to day and night to night basis in *pick your 3rd world country* but we go on with our lives drinking Starbucks and face timing whoever. But now that it's a journalist that wasn't even American we need to grab the pitchforks and demand retribution? Why?


I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement, please correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you didn't misinterpret me. Your comment (and to a degree @Kraut783 's) is what I meant by my comment.

Yes, terrible things happen every day, all the time, everywhere. However, we 100% know about this terrible thing AND we would be completely justified to engage diplomatically and strengthen America's position as a moral leader. We are supposed to have these western values, right? I know it could possibly endanger the arms deal we are working (how big is it, again?) with the Saudi's, and some would make the argument that in order to continue pressure on Iran in that area; but as i have stated before it's the easiest kill and best soundbite for a president that needs one.

Here's the point- if you were in a room with someone committing a heinous act, would you say, "Stuff like this happens everywhere. Has since the beginning of time; plus, the person getting murdered may or may not have some associations I don't approve of."? Probably not, right? I don't really care how much "they deserved it", I don't think a ton of people on this board would just continue on with their day if they could stop another human from getting killed that was previously just going about their day. Maybe I am wrong?

It's the internet, I think, but my comment was an observation after re-reading these pages and seeing, "Fuck that guy why do I care if our ally ordered his death and recorded it? Furthermore, why should I want my administration to care about it?" in a couple of iterations.
 
Here's the point- if you were in a room with someone committing a heinous act, would you say, "Stuff like this happens everywhere. Has since the beginning of time; plus, the person getting murdered may or may not have some associations I don't approve of."? Probably not, right? I don't really care how much "they deserved it", I don't think a ton of people on this board would just continue on with their day if they could stop another human from getting killed that was previously just going about their day. Maybe I am wrong?
Man, I don't know about trying to draw that parallel. It's more than pretty thin. Essentially, that statement implies we were there and complicit in the crime. That's a very, very different scenario than what took place.
 
No, you didn't misinterpret me. Your comment (and to a degree @Kraut783 's) is what I meant by my comment.

Yes, terrible things happen every day, all the time, everywhere. However, we 100% know about this terrible thing AND we would be completely justified to engage diplomatically and strengthen America's position as a moral leader. We are supposed to have these western values, right? I know it could possibly endanger the arms deal we are working (how big is it, again?) with the Saudi's, and some would make the argument that in order to continue pressure on Iran in that area; but as i have stated before it's the easiest kill and best soundbite for a president that needs one.

Here's the point- if you were in a room with someone committing a heinous act, would you say, "Stuff like this happens everywhere. Has since the beginning of time; plus, the person getting murdered may or may not have some associations I don't approve of."? Probably not, right? I don't really care how much "they deserved it", I don't think a ton of people on this board would just continue on with their day if they could stop another human from getting killed that was previously just going about their day. Maybe I am wrong?

It's the internet, I think, but my comment was an observation after re-reading these pages and seeing, "Fuck that guy why do I care if our ally ordered his death and recorded it? Furthermore, why should I want my administration to care about it?" in a couple of iterations.


I'm in agreeance with you, I think I just hold a more cynical stance. Obviously you never know what you will do if put into a situation, but I'd like to think I'd do something to stop it or make sure follow up actions are done.

But in a society of outrage, where does this lie? Should this be at the top of my priorities for the thing the president to tackle? More in the middle? The bottom?

Maybe I'm just tired of the dog and pony show that is our modern politics, where when something happens that is undeniably immoral (based upon our own western interpretations) all that really happens is a metaphorical slap on the wrist and a 30 second soundbite to earn brownie points.

Would I love for everyone to stop being dicks to each other for 5 seconds and realize that we as a species have more in common than what makes us different? Yeah definitely, sign me up. I don't know, but I'm with you on the fact that a simple statement condemning the act only takes a moment. Whether or not how I feel on the meaning beyond the statement is irrelevant.
 
Man, I don't know about trying to draw that parallel. It's more than pretty thin. Essentially, that statement implies we were there and complicit in the crime. That's a very, very different scenario than what took place.
Oh I absolutely agree with you 100%. That parallel is bullshit and I don't think that.

I don't mean we (the US) were in a position to stop what happened. What I did mean is everyone talking a tough game (here and in general) about who "deserves" to die for any number of reasons is either being disingenuous for the likes or a shitty human in general. I wasn't making a parallel about what our administration's actions were or are; I am, however, voicing my displeasure with people saying, "fuck that guy, he got what he deserved because he was a terrorist/not an American anyway/shit like this happens everywhere it's just another human dead I don't care."

I think you took what I said (and you quoted) as a critique on the Admin; I meant it for the people commenting on whether or not they care about Jamal Kashaggi, the person, being slaughtered. If that's someone's actual position- that you can straight up merk civilians in a consulate-I understand it, I personally just feel like that person is a fucking idiot.


It's not about party; it's about how there has to be a line somewhere. Where is the bar? We are ok with straight up murder of civilians now, as long as we can justify it by moving the goalposts? I think that's horseshit, that's all. And that's not outrage of any sort, @SaintKP , so I'm not sure where it falls on your scale. But, if we look at this as a chance to win an ideological battle with one of the most brutal regimes in recent history that just so happens to be our ally, maybe it should rank higher?

Murder is bad. We, as a country, should encourage our elected officials to not stand for the state sponsored murder of civilians that live in Virginia in exile. I think that's as boiled down as far as I can get my position.
 
It's not about party; it's about how there has to be a line somewhere. Where is the bar? We are ok with straight up murder of civilians now, as long as we can justify it by moving the goalposts? I think that's horseshit, that's all. And that's not outrage of any sort, @SaintKP , so I'm not sure where it falls on your scale. But, if we look at this as a chance to win an ideological battle with one of the most brutal regimes in recent history that just so happens to be our ally, maybe it should rank higher?

Murder is bad. We, as a country, should encourage our elected officials to not stand for the state sponsored murder of civilians that live in Virginia in exile. I think that's as boiled down as far as I can get my position.


I read you loud and clear, I'm all for trying to win ideological battles and change the world for the better. But the question I was trying to raise in my original post, is what? At most, will be done? Realistically that is.

While I don't agree with the stances of "I don't give a fuck", I can see where they're coming from. It's a foreign citizen, in a foreign country, killed by another foreign state. We have our own problems right here in America, why should this be on our collective radars? And if it is, then this goes back to my original question. What, realistically, will be done to stop it, or prevent it from happening. Outside of said 30 second soundbite.

Outrage may have been a bad term to use, but as the saying goes "pick your battles" is this a battle worth picking when there are other issues at hand?
 
I read you loud and clear, I'm all for trying to win ideological battles and change the world for the better. But the question I was trying to raise in my original post, is what? At most, will be done? Realistically that is.

While I don't agree with the stances of "I don't give a fuck", I can see where they're coming from. It's a foreign citizen, in a foreign country, killed by another foreign state. We have our own problems right here in America, why should this be on our collective radars? And if it is, then this goes back to my original question. What, realistically, will be done to stop it, or prevent it from happening. Outside of said 30 second soundbite.

Outrage may have been a bad term to use, but as the saying goes "pick your battles" is this a battle worth picking when there are other issues at hand?
I think I laid out those reasons why earlier in the thread, mainly for the geopolitical credit I think we are passing up.

If you go back and read and still have questions, I would be happy to expound. I'm an expounder.
 
I think I laid out those reasons why earlier in the thread, mainly for the geopolitical credit I think we are passing up.

If you go back and read and still have questions, I would be happy to expound. I'm an expounder.

I know you did, but my question for you is what geo-political gain is there in a 30 second soundbite condemning the actions, what realistic sanctions if any, will be imposed on one of our own allies who we regularly complete arms deals (even if that record deal is no where even near the target amount, which is hilarious in it's own right) and is one of our top oil partners.

Yeah it's an easy W for the President to make, literally underhand slowpitch softball levels. But it isn't one he will make, whether it be from exaggerated fear of secondary responses from SA or some other unknown reason.
 
Soft Power is still a thing in the world.

It's probably worth remembering when the question of "Who fucking cares?" is asked.
 
Understood SpitfireV, but...if the country of the embassy or consulate does not consent to the host country...the treaties are pretty inviolate. If it wasn't...the cold war would have been a lot different.

I think we're on the same page, it's an issue of treaties vs laws. A treaty isn't law but it's an understanding that certain things will and will not happen so while in law something might be technically true in actuality that thing is essentially ignored by treaty (because you want the same treatment for your own people).
 
I think we're on the same page, it's an issue of treaties vs laws. A treaty isn't law but it's an understanding that certain things will and will not happen so while in law something might be technically true in actuality that thing is essentially ignored by treaty (because you want the same treatment for your own people).


A treaty isn't law??? Please elaborate.
 
Also, if an Islamic State Jihadist beheaded an Al-Qaeda fighter and we had an audio recording of everything that entailed, would we feel different/should we feel different than we do about this man??? Why/why not???
 
A treaty isn't law??? Please elaborate.

Well not necessarily, no. Remember we're talking about the Vienna Convention here, a series of basically gentlemen's agreements. Some countries have codified elements in law but some haven't. Most didn't until long after the agreements if they did.
 
I think we're on the same page, it's an issue of treaties vs laws. A treaty isn't law but it's an understanding that certain things will and will not happen so while in law something might be technically true in actuality that thing is essentially ignored by treaty (because you want the same treatment for your own people).

Agreed; Treaties....and most countries have laws to help enforce the treaty agreements in their country.

"Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations

The treaty is an extensive document, containing 53 articles. The following is a basic overview of its key provisions.
  • Article 9. The host nation at any time and for any reason can declare a particular member of the diplomatic staff to bepersona non grata. The sending state must recall this person within a reasonable period of time, or otherwise this person may lose their diplomatic immunity.
  • Article 22. The premises of a diplomatic mission, such as an embassy, are inviolable and must not be entered by the host country except by permission of the head of the mission. Furthermore, the host country must protect the mission from intrusion or damage. The host country must never search the premises, nor seize its documents or property. Article 30 extends this provision to the private residence of the diplomats.
  • Article 24 establishes that the archives and documents of a diplomatic mission are inviolable. The receiving country shall not seize or open such documents."
 
Also, if an Islamic State Jihadist beheaded an Al-Qaeda fighter and we had an audio recording of everything that entailed, would we feel different/should we feel different than we do about this man??? Why/why not???

Neither the Islamic State or AQ is a sovereign country....we weren't talking about the morality of the act (State sanctioned murder) but the treaties/laws that were used/abused to allow it to happen.
 
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Maybe these guys were conducting a kill/capture CONOP that had been approved through proper channels and they just failed to consult the USA first.

Maybe those damn Arabians are just being the same murderous thugs that they have been for a thousand years.

Maybe we should just go apologize to them for our constant interference in world affairs.

The current POTUS has no road to victory here - the last guy went on a world wide apology tour because America is constantly doing the very thing that we are now DEMANDING that the new guy runs out to do. Americans did a whole lot of "no blood for oil" protesting the FIRST time we put troops on Saudi soil (even though it was Iraqi oil we were protesting). I'm just not sure where I should focus my outrage.
The Saudis killed a Saudi in Turkey - but he worked with the US media so that means I need to be outraged that free-speech is under assault - I just want to display the appropriate levels of moral outrage so I can maintain a low hypocrisy level during the Thanksgiving Holiday.
I dont want to feel guilty about the murder of one innocent cultural icon while I am eating my turkey and cranberries to celebrate my nations triumph over a different innocent cultural group.

Otherwise, we should immediately assume our role as Team America: World Police and bring Saudi Arabia to justice.
Lets fuck them up bad and then take their oil as punishment - then the POTUS cant hide behind his excuse that the Saudis will raise global oil prices if Team America: World Police start meddling in their business.

Please someone tell me how to be a good citizen with regard to this bloody scandal !!!

Enjoy your turkey and cranberries...I know I will...the end
 
@SaintKP Sorry for the delay, I wanted to re-read my previous posts and think about a solid answer. I'll try and be concise as possible; I have a bad habit of over talking.

It's just another example of having a narcissist that's politically inept in the Oval Office. President Trump is good at some things, he's terrible at others. This whole kerfuffle is a great example of the things he's bad at. Vision? Terrible. Leadership? Not great. Speaking off the cuff? Shit show.

America First Political Gain-
1- President Trump needs to be focusing on 2020. Every engagement, every soundbite. Tell me which soundbite is better- "I won't threaten the world economy over an issue that really isn't any of our business" or "America is a human rights champion and we will not partner with entities that violate human rights the way Saudi Arabia did. Although my 5 predecessors were weak on SA and blatantly ignored this regime, I won't." The first he actually said to a reporter, which the left jumped on saying, "GASP CAN WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THE PRESIDENT VALUES MONEY OVER HUMAN RIGHTS". The second is me, an idiot, coming up with something better that fits a narrative that's actually useful. The "official statement" put out by the WH (now with 100% more exclamation marks than needed for official communication) was a shit show. "Listen, I know a guy got killed and dismembered on tape. But SA keeps oil prices low. So, so important for the world. Here is the why it's important for us to ignore human rights violations because here is what else SA does and how much money we stand to make."

2- President Trump needs to hold a theme for about 18 months, and that theme is, "The left is crazy, they're going to hate me no matter what, but I am not as bad as they say and I am making more and more moderate calls." He can use that sort of stance to pivot to literally everything- the border wall? "Human Rights Protector". Immigration? Bam, lemme throw on this cape of me protecting humans BUT wanting strong immigration laws. It's a 30 second soundbite that has massive political gain.But, left to his own devices, the dude trolls and prefers getting press.

3- Every. Single. President since 1970 has been a fucking liar about SA. "They're our ally so we will turn a blind eye to them being shitty." has been the official narrative since forever. Obama was worse with Iran. Bush (both) were worse with Iran and SA. Literally every president has turned a blind eye to the shithole that is SA because it's valuable to us for other reasons. President Trump just said the inside part on the outside because that's what he does. He's ignoring the opportunity to be the first president that actually breaks the fourth wall and do anything. Wanna talk about how America is the most civilized country ever seen thanks to our Judaeo-Christian values? Solidify those suburban whites that are a little sick of all the whining? Nail evangelicals down? Endear yourself to the wavering right? This is a perfect time to do it and threaten SA to get their shit together if they want to keep getting propped up by us. More on that relationship in the international section.

4- The president once again took a shit on his intelligence agencies. Read the statement linked above. "Maybe he did! Maybe he didn't! We may never know!" (NARRATOR VOICE): But he DOES know.

The CIA told him the fact of the matter. There's a tape he won't listen to because he doesn't have the stones. For a guy that "really loves the IC", he takes every shot he can to say, "I don't trust you" and undermine them in the most public way possible. It's almost like he doesn't trust the IC because he refuses to speak out against anyone that treats him well (like the country that he visited first as president) regardless of truth.

He could have fixed that problem here, too. Or at least established that he was trying to fix that perception. Instead, he went 180 out and basically said, "Fuck the CIA. They weren't there, so who knows?" I am sure that MBS denied any involvement strongly, which really seals the deal for the president, at least as far as international adversaries are concerned.


International Gains-
1- We are the stronger partner in the relationship with SA. We can diplomatically affect a human rights violator of the highest regard just by talking tough which seems right in this administration's wheelhouse. "Stop doing all this shit, or we stop doing business with you. Everyone else, take notice." We essentially just used a shit ton of tarriffs on China for moral reasons (reciprocity and treating each other fairly is a moral argument that led to economic outcomes), but we want to ignore SA because it would "ruin the economy"? Economy is just fine. Use this to our advantage and get a BIGGER arms deal. Get MORE out of SA in the region. This isn't your friend we are making a business deal with, they're an international theocracy we tolerate because they're useful, which means, every negotiation we should be going at their necks.

I don't know why everyone forgets this is the country that aided the 9/11 hijackers. They're a shitty country with better PR and hit the geographical lottery cause oil that we need. Why we treat them with kid gloves I will never understand. Why we don't absolutely destroy them in every trade and arms deal is another head scratcher.


Bottom lines-

1- If you only care about American citizen human rights; if you don't want to be the world police anymore; if the good behavior of allies isn't necessary to you for international economic dealings; if you don't want other countries to emulate our values and be better themselves; if you want to put America First in it's most literal senses; if you feel like we can't action on these issues because "we do the same things"; that's totally fine. I think you're wrong, but that doesn't really matter. We should use our position as the world leader in damn near everything to make others be better, because we are the greatest country in the history of mankind. We should not circle the wagons and shut the borders and pretend like other countries' actions won't eventually affect us here if we don't intervene in some ways.

2- The president needs to handle international politics, issues on race, issues on women and issues with the press better. He needs to win those middle ground votes and this isn't the way you do that. I understand this "might just be a soundbite", but it could be so much more and even naive ass regular joes (me) can see that. I want the administration to be better or they're not going to get re-elected.
 
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