Linda Norgrove rescue botched, SF/SEALs blamed

[TheWookie]

She died because the taliban took her hostage. If they had not done that then no harm

Raise a glass to those who dared to try - This time it didn't end exactly as we would have wanted....but it also didn't end at all like those who abducted her wanted either. As they lay dead or captured.

Tough, tough situation. But again prayers and thanks for those shooters who put their lives on the line in trying to bring her back.....

The notion that Afghan elders were going to be able to talk her to freedom is BS. Not in this area.

 

[Marauder06]

US forces are not the only ones to employ US hand grenades. Just sayin'.

Additionally, if the choice were between getting fragged or getting my head sawn off by insurgents and the video posted on Al Jazeera, I'd take the former. Again, just sayin'.

 

[pardus]

IMHO, I would certainly believe that she felt the same as you, Pardus; big boy rules. As for her "right" to be there? Not for me to say. I pray that she makes it her business to watch over those who came to her aid.

Rest in peace ma'am.

She had no 'right' because she forces Military personal to rescue her and protect her, who is she to put their lives on the line?

 

[pardus]

US forces are not the only ones to employ US hand grenades. Just sayin'.

Additionally, if the choice were between getting fragged or getting my head sawn off by insurgents and the video posted on Al Jazeera, I'd take the former. Again, just sayin'.

True but if the reports are to be believed it was our camera footage that showed it was an own goal.

I hope this wasn't a fuck up, the reports thus far say it was.

 

[dknob]

Whats the SOP if there are bad guys hunkered down deep with heavy fire power unloading out of windows/doors at friendly forces if a Hostage is right inside with them?? I somehow don't see bang and enter as an option.

 

[pardus]

Whats the SOP if there are bad guys hunkered down deep with heavy fire power unloading out of windows/doors at friendly forces if a Hostage is right inside with them?? I somehow don't see bang and enter as an option.

Agreed absolutely.
My question would be why were the "bad guys hunkered down deep with heavy fire power unloading out of windows/doors "?

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Reason for my question, Hostage Rescue or Personal Recovery is not a mission that any unit can perform. I would wonder why they would have conducted a full blown raid and not waited for her captives to move her or drop their protective posture. Not saying that’s what happened b/c I don’t have a clue of what took place. However it seems a little odd that they had an advanced team in the compound, sent an assault team in by helo and had 150 supporting forces brought in as well… That’s a hell of a lot of noise for HR/PR mission, where the hostage takers have the ability to Alamo up. Not that I have any clue of what I am talking about, b/c I really don’t. Just seems a little odd to me.

Anyhow, shit happens chica should have not played with fire and she would not have gotten burned.

 

[TheSiatonist]

...Numerous helos, 160+ guys on our side alone, a 30 minute firefight, compounds with no rhyme or reason to their shape or layout and no blueprints to consult....

You hate to brush aside the death of an innocent with a "shit happens" and a shrug, but sometimes the painful truth is that the good guys, no matter how well trained, equipped, and prepared, will sometimes simply lose a battle and fail to slay the dragon in time.

Freakin' A, Free!

I'd like to think that since we the general public do not hear these kinds of mess often means that you guys are winning most of the time. Unavoidably, there will be ops that fail, and there will be a lot of scrutiny on the videos/AARs to figure out what went wrong in the hope in won't happen again in the future. IMO, if it really was DevGrp who handled this then I guess there was very little that could have been done to prevent this considering these guys are the best at what they do. Unlike that tragic HR attempt that happened here in the Philippines recently -- but that's another story.

My only wish is that if the powers-that-be do decide to investigate, that they do so behind closed doors so as not to compromise the identities of the operators.

 

[phridum]

As some other posters mentioned the publics misconceptions about HR abilities, it seems to me that this mission closely follows a Hollywood-esque plot. I've read in various paperback memoirs about officers attempting to task high level operators with BS like this. Perhaps this mission was pushed through the cracks? We all know that the more high profile the task, the more fingers want in the pie. Even down to the power play of having US forces do the deed.

I totally agree with FF and the other shit-happens-ers, sometimes, that's just they way it breaks down. Things like a poor plan forced into action, compounded with bad intel and the fog of war, make for a rough AAR. I'm only hoping the boots on the ground don't get hung out to dry. I'm tired of seeing loyal hard working brothers take the fall when they did they best they could in a situation they knew was fucked from the get-go.

Honestly, seems like a poor plan alerted the bad guys (or air arrived early before the ninjas finished), bad guys hunkered down for the fight and they couldn't keep track of which mud shack had the girl. I still find it hard to believe that even SF or SEALs not trained for HR could accidentally toss a frag. Those things are pretty distinct, but who knows, if your buddies are going down around you all bets are off.

 

[SpitfireV]

Prime Minister David Cameron came out and said that the reason the Yanks did it was because it was in a US administered area. The rest of what he said was waffle, like that Petraeus was "treating her like she was a US citizen" whatever the fuck that means.

With regard to your first post, the reason you probably thought of the army was because in the UK/NZ/AUS "special forces" means the units overall in the same way you guys use "SOF." So in the UK you've got SAS/SBS/SRR and they're all "special forces" unlike the one unit you guys have, the Special Forces :)

 

[JBS]

Here's my take being non-SOF, and with the understanding that we're speculating until the facts come out:

We know a SEAL element recently carried out a kick-ass rescue mission above 7500 feet deep in bad guy territory with suppressed weapons, eliminating several sentries, snatching the hostage, and successfully exfiltrating with the payload in hand. In that mission, they were in and out with no noise and no detection. So this time around, if they used helos there had to be many other factors we simply don't know about; for instance, was there a small convoy of cargo vans (i.e., hostage vehicle plus decoys) parked out front with the motors running, waiting to disappear with the hostage into the countryside? In some towns a tiny white minivan or taxi can disappear into the background with little hope of being able to find it. There is always the possibility that the observers suspected imminent movement of the hostage and with that movement the closure of a window of opportunity.

I have no comment on the grenade, if there was one, since its employment was an on the ground decision in the middle of a 30 minute gunfight, and the facts aren't out yet.

 

[Ex3]

I read the first few pages of the reader comments after the Daily Mail article. I was struck by how the vast majority (95% I'd say) are saying exactly what we are - prayers for the woman and her family; she put herself at risk; the Yanks put their lives on the line to save her. I don't think the reactions here had this been a US casualty would've been as reasonable.

 

[DA SWO]

Prime Minister David Cameron came out and said that the reason the Yanks did it was because it was in a US administered area. The rest of what he said was waffle, like that Petraeus was "treating her like she was a US citizen" whatever the fuck that means.

With regard to your first post, the reason you probably thought of the army was because in the UK/NZ/AUS "special forces" means the units overall in the same way you guys use "SOF." So in the UK you've got SAS/SBS/SRR and they're all "special forces" unlike the one unit you guys have, the Special Forces :)

I am just responding to the stuff I highlited; treating her like a US citizen means we can pull out the stops and use the best to find/rescue her. Had she been a random Afghani or 3rd Country Citizen then you have to consider using non-US forces. IIRC she was working for USAID (or another US agency) which is why we could take a more pro-active posture.

I am saddened that she died, but glad we still have people willing to take the risk. I would pray that someone would try to rescue me or a family member in a similar situation.

I will also wait until the final report to see if it was a grenade that killed her or a sympathetic explosion caused by a flash bang.

 

[Manolito]

OK you all know I am no door kicker.
I place this lady in the same category of a thrill seeker who fails and then brave men and women have to go rescue their shit. This woman knew the situation and took the risk anyway.
I am so proud of the people that made the effort and I can't help but wonder who were the bad guys? Were we after one of them and the hostage got in the way?
years gone by we had a hard time getting 150 people plus air support on a full blown search and destroy mission. Just sounds like a very big move for one person.
It has been said well here I would want my loved one to go out in a battle instead of being tied up and a dull knife used to hack their head off.
If what I carried years ago is still the ammo issue a 30 minute non stop firefight would have left me with a lot of empty pouches and the need to possibly use a frag. My experience has been five minutes is a long time to sustain fire at any one given time.
Just an old guys thoughts on the world

 

[judomedic]

OK you all know I am no door kicker.
I place this lady in the same category of a thrill seeker who fails and then brave men and women have to go rescue their shit. This woman knew the situation and took the risk anyway.
I am so proud of the people that made the effort and I can't help but wonder who were the bad guys? Were we after one of them and the hostage got in the way?
years gone by we had a hard time getting 150 people plus air support on a full blown search and destroy mission. Just sounds like a very big move for one person.
It has been said well here I would want my loved one to go out in a battle instead of being tied up and a dull knife used to hack their head off.
If what I carried years ago is still the ammo issue a 30 minute non stop firefight would have left me with a lot of empty pouches and the need to possibly use a frag. My experience has been five minutes is a long time to sustain fire at any one given time.
Just an old guys thoughts on the world

First off, I'd like to extend my sympathies to US spec ops community, because the UK and Europe are laying the blame for this woman's death at the feet of the entire community. I've read several UK and European articles criticizing the US Special Forces (who I understand were not involved) and criticizing Seal Team Six. All the while questioning why the SAS were not used. Of course, at least one reporter failed to note that the Seal Teams had been in that province for months and new the area and ignored the fact that the nearest SAS team was too far to make a timely rescue.

That said, I have this to say to Manolito. I agree with your above statement. I cannot count the number of times my colleagues and I have risked our lives on technical rescues (high angle, swift water, and cave) to save some half wit that decided to go 'a cavin' ' with a flashlight and multitool.

Again, you guys, you real operators, have my sympathies, cause 'poop snowballs down the slope'.

 

[Polar Bear]

Helos are a bad thing in rural areas....walk bitches. Unless it was silent or sounds like a goat it is going to attract attention. I will not comment on who should have carried out the mission because you already started off with a helo

 

[JimMCpog]

Helos are a bad thing in rural areas....walk bitches. Unless it was silent or sounds like a goat it is going to attract attention. I will not comment on who should have carried out the mission because you already started off with a helo

Maybe they thought they would need to land right on or next to the compound in order to keep from being detected and finding an empty mud structure when they finally got there.

 

[Polar Bear]

Maybe they thought they would need to land right on or next to the compound in order to keep from being detected and finding an empty mud structure when they finally got there.

Sorry but a helo takes away from the element to surprise. I work in the city now and can hear a helicopter 1 min out. When do you think you can hear it in the country side....gives them time to prep. Think about it like this does someone robbing your house knock on your door to come in or throw a rock threw a window if you are home? No they try and be quiet

 

[dknob]

This seems to be the most BELIEVABLE accurate depiction of what happened on the ground: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/13/linda-norgrove-us-commando-disciplinary

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

This seems to be the most BELIEVABLE accurate depiction of what happened on the ground: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/13/linda-norgrove-us-commando-disciplinary

Damn, I would not want to be that SEAL (one that tossed the frag) right now. Thats why all this HSLD video feeds and over head shit should not be..... Motherfuckers getting to hit a rewind button and say WTF. That SEAL did not get a chance to hit a rewind button, so why should his boss get that option.....


On the other hand, thats a major fuck up tossing a frag in a building with out positive control on the hostage or at least knowing where she was.