Linda Norgrove rescue botched, SF/SEALs blamed
- Thread starter phridum
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RetPara
SOF Support
Shit. Throwing the grenade, not good. Not owing up to it; till its seen in the instant replay..... worse by orders of magnitudes.
I don't want to go too far out of my lane with this, but we're still talking a 5-man unit assaulting through an objective in hostile terrain, in a 30 minute firefight, with a high concentration of bad guys inside firing on them. I might be skewered for saying this, and if so that's fine with me since I like a good scrap on the boards every once in a while, but the first priority for those men had to be neutralize the threat, and stay alive first, and get the hostage second. For the comments I've read on the UK Guardian, some of these armchair generals seem to forget this was an active gun battle with 7.62 zinging around in a compound that nobody had floorplans for.
And since I'm already out here on a ledge, shit I might as well jump around a bit. I also read comments about how the SAS should have been the ones to go in. I'll put it like this: the SAS are respected around the world, no doubt, but it is pure fantasy to say that it would have gone one way or another at any point in time. In their most recent (successful) rescue mission, they secured a hostage, but a little kid and an Afghan mother were both killed. In another rescue, their hostage was saved, but the Afghan terp was smoked in the process. My point is not degrade or detract from the SAS, as everybody knows their reputation. My point is there were bullets flying in a war zone and people die in war zones when bullets are flying. Holding up the SAS (or any other group) as if they would have done the job flawlessly is (a.)impossible to know and (b.) not at all supported by recent history, where there have been friendlies KIA (they just didn't "matter" because of their nationality and citizenship). So I agree with the earlier post that this woman would never have been in this position if she didn't decide to go play "let me help the 3rd world" in a place where Westerners get beheaded just for being there.:2c:
And since I'm already out here on a ledge, shit I might as well jump around a bit. I also read comments about how the SAS should have been the ones to go in. I'll put it like this: the SAS are respected around the world, no doubt, but it is pure fantasy to say that it would have gone one way or another at any point in time. In their most recent (successful) rescue mission, they secured a hostage, but a little kid and an Afghan mother were both killed. In another rescue, their hostage was saved, but the Afghan terp was smoked in the process. My point is not degrade or detract from the SAS, as everybody knows their reputation. My point is there were bullets flying in a war zone and people die in war zones when bullets are flying. Holding up the SAS (or any other group) as if they would have done the job flawlessly is (a.)impossible to know and (b.) not at all supported by recent history, where there have been friendlies KIA (they just didn't "matter" because of their nationality and citizenship). So I agree with the earlier post that this woman would never have been in this position if she didn't decide to go play "let me help the 3rd world" in a place where Westerners get beheaded just for being there.:2c:
Damn... no way around the facts...
When you take into account that the PM said that US forces did it because it was in a US held area (which makes sense) then treating her as anyone other than someone who needs to be rescued immediately makes sense and the US citizen remark smacks of political arsekissing. The fact she's not a US citizen shouldn't come into it considering that:
A. She's British and remembering the Special Relationship.
B. The US said they'd sort it out and so regardless of who's citizen she is, it's US responsibility.
As for the talk around her not being there- there is a place for aid workers, whether we like it or not. Some of them know the risks, some of them are deluded, that'll always happen. Regardless most of them do good work. She's probably done a solid in that this particular team is now eliminated.
Not trying to disagree with you both nor defend Ms. Norgrove but there are certain types of people whom I would describe as "selfless" and "filled with compassion", and they are quite different from your common, everyday thrill-seekers.
IMO, thrill-seekers, you can tell them "No, you can't go to A-stan coz they'll chop your head off" and they'd say "OK", and then do something else like lie down with a 50-foot crocodile or jump off a cliff with a big-ass umbrella. All on camera.
But people like Ms. Norgrove, you tell them to stay off A-stan and they'll ask you back "Who will look after all those poor people torn by the war?". They are persistent and they want to help those people because they believe if they won't do something, nobody else will. They have made it their life's mission to help others even if it means getting killed in the process. And they WILL find a way to get in there no matter what.
Just saying...
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Gonna have to respectfully disagree there. The mission, which in this case was hostage rescue, should come first, especially if the unit tasked with it is specifically trained to handle it.
They all knew that though, that's not the issue... they're professionals after all; I don't believe anyone was trying to put himself before the mission. It was simply a mistake, on one individual's part, to deploy a frag into an unknown room of an unknown compound before locating and securing the hostage first. A mistake in a Tier-1 unit is pretty much game over for you career. It's not unfortunate, it's just the way things are (and have to be) in that kind of place to uphold excellence.
RIP and condolences to the family.
Exactly, but I think everyone is jumping the gun on this one and arm-chairing the mission. We must wait till the investigation is over and the reports come out before we thrown the operator or operators to the wolves. This discussion now and here of all places is wrong and timing is really wrong. We are quiet, remember this.
the problem is the operator not coming forward with it off the bat. he could have held on to his career if he owned up to it. the death was a misfortune, but nobody is perfect.
Sicilian Lass
Member
Your point is well taken and I'm sure Ms. Norgrove was genuine in her compassion. That said, the time to help people torn by war is after it is over and the place is certainly not in the middle of a hostile zone.
I have to agree with Pardus and others. Warriors have enough to deal with keeping themselves and each other safe while engaging the enemy without having to rescue someone who shouldn't be there in the first place.
As to the results of the rescue, the only thing I can speak to with any degree of certainty is this: the outcome, while tragic does nothing to diminish the selflessness of these brave men in their attempt to save her and I thank them for all they do.
My heart goes out to the family if Ms. Norgrove and to her rescue team.
OK, lets take YOUR ad hoc profile of Ms. Norgrove here and a little deductive reasoning. Just because someone is an ardent 'Do-Gooder', doesn't give them a magical pass from the realities on the ground any more then it would for an ardent vacuum salesman.
In the end, and however noble Miss Norgrove's intentions may have been, she helped (though not totally responsible for) get a lot of people shot up, herself killed and end the career of a good warrior. Whether Miss Norgrove was a "good", "bad", or "deluded" aid worker has absolutely nothing to do with what happened. The hard fact is that her decision to put herself in that situation in the first place bears every bit of responsibility for the eventual outcome as the SEAL who put the grenade through the door.
I have no idea what the current statistics are, but a decade or so ago; the success rates for armed rescue missions extracting hostage(s) alive were less than 20%. I can only assume that these statistics haven't radically changed much over the years. As such, I would say that the decisions of those who allowed Miss Norgrove to put herself initially in such a high risk situation, also bear a good deal of responsibility for this tragedy.
And while I'm on my rant here; I'd like to know why so many damned people are so quick and ready to jump down the throat of a volunteer Warrior when something goes wrong? A lot of good men risked their lives to try and save Miss Norgove that night. When it comes to 'Do Gooders'; they're the real ones.
Ultimately, all the finger pointing should be at the Islamics who teach the hate and fund the hate that motivated those Muslims who took Miss Norgove hostage. :doh:
Regarding the SEAL
There was a story once taught to me about wisdom. It's supposedly a true story. As most of us know, the Gallow Winery in California make a lot of wine and sells it relatively inexpensively. They're able to do this by making the wine in huge volumes. They have huge stainless steel wine vats that hold thousands of gallons of wine at a time.
A production manager one day turned the wrong valve in preparing one of these huge vats to cleaned. He unintentionally dumped thousands of gallons of finished wine down the drain costing the Winery a small fortune in lost revenue.
When the owner was asked if he fired the worker, he replied; "Heavens no! If I hired someone new, I'd have to train him and then hope he wouldn't make the very same mistake. The worker who's already made the mistake is now one of our most experienced and I know he'll never make that mistake again."
I know the Navy doesn't alway work by wisdom and is heavily influenced by public perception, but with regard to the SEAL who supposedly placed the grenade inside a room where Miss Norgrove happened to be; he may be more valuable to the community today than he's ever been before.
There was a story once taught to me about wisdom. It's supposedly a true story. As most of us know, the Gallow Winery in California make a lot of wine and sells it relatively inexpensively. They're able to do this by making the wine in huge volumes. They have huge stainless steel wine vats that hold thousands of gallons of wine at a time.
A production manager one day turned the wrong valve in preparing one of these huge vats to cleaned. He unintentionally dumped thousands of gallons of finished wine down the drain costing the Winery a small fortune in lost revenue.
When the owner was asked if he fired the worker, he replied; "Heavens no! If I hired someone new, I'd have to train him and then hope he wouldn't make the very same mistake. The worker who's already made the mistake is now one of our most experienced and I know he'll never make that mistake again."
I know the Navy doesn't alway work by wisdom and is heavily influenced by public perception, but with regard to the SEAL who supposedly placed the grenade inside a room where Miss Norgrove happened to be; he may be more valuable to the community today than he's ever been before.
Just wanted to x2 this.
if anything he will find a good home in SAD if they do transfer him out of the unit or the SEALs entirely.
Meh, I don't have the entire story or details so I'll set aside the nails or use them to crucify someone more deserving. Now, his stepping forward later and fessing up is more of an issue to me than anything, but I'm not exactly in his CoC or boat crew, so I shan't worry about that.
Besides, I'm pretty sure that particular career field has a way of determining if the guy stays, goes to a new Team, is sent to BUD/S to be an instructor, or finds a new home outside of the Navy.
As for the deceased, running around Kunar is a really bad idea if your name tape says "U.S. XXXXXX", running around as an unarmed aid worker is patently stupid. You'd like to think she thought this all the way through, but I doubt it. I guess other parts of the world don't need aid workers, parts which AREN'T in one of the most dangerous areas on the planet?
You pays your money and you takes your chances......
Besides, I'm pretty sure that particular career field has a way of determining if the guy stays, goes to a new Team, is sent to BUD/S to be an instructor, or finds a new home outside of the Navy.
As for the deceased, running around Kunar is a really bad idea if your name tape says "U.S. XXXXXX", running around as an unarmed aid worker is patently stupid. You'd like to think she thought this all the way through, but I doubt it. I guess other parts of the world don't need aid workers, parts which AREN'T in one of the most dangerous areas on the planet?
You pays your money and you takes your chances......
Terrible terrible news. My thoughts are with her family and the man/men involved in the rescue operation.
"Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear its you".
"Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear its you".
pardus
Verified Military
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A'stan is a war zone, that is no place for any fucking aid worker, they can turn up when things settle down.
Regarding the fessing up about the grenade, was there an AAR that he failed to mention the grenade or had he just not mentioned it because it hadn't come up?
Huge difference there, if he did hide it then he should go, no question, otherwise...
Regarding the fessing up about the grenade, was there an AAR that he failed to mention the grenade or had he just not mentioned it because it hadn't come up?
Huge difference there, if he did hide it then he should go, no question, otherwise...
JimMCpog
Unverified
Yeah but if they get detected on the approach the captors could load her up and drive her out of there or get into a shoot out well outside the compound. You could end up taking a bunch of casualties well before you're anywhere close to picking up 1 hostage.
Sometimes there's a greater risk to the force by trying to do a ground infiltration than going in via black helo.
and the helicopter could crash or someone could slip and break a leg, comms could be lost etc....I WOULD HAVE NEVER USED A HELICOPTER, TO ME IT IS A GREATER RISK. This is my opinion and you will not change it. Since Vietnam the US Military has believed in gee-wiz gadgets
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