Linda Norgrove rescue botched, SF/SEALs blamed

[Swill]

There's some big talk in this thread. Open Source says there's an investigation. So, why don't we wait until that is done before we start slicing and dicing?

 

[skeeter]

RIP Ms. Norgrove

I'm sure the SEAL's did their best in the rescue attempt.
I know this sounds harsh considering the ending of the raid, but on the plus side the SEAL's killed some bad guys.

 

[DoctorDoom]

OK, lets take YOUR ad hoc profile of Ms. Norgrove here and a little deductive reasoning. Just because someone is an ardent 'Do-Gooder', doesn't give them a magical pass from the realities on the ground any more then it would for an ardent vacuum salesman.

In the end, and however noble Miss Norgrove's intentions may have been, she helped (though not totally responsible for) get a lot of people shot up, herself killed and end the career of a good warrior. Whether Miss Norgrove was a "good", "bad", or "deluded" aid worker has absolutely nothing to do with what happened. The hard fact is that her decision to put herself in that situation in the first place bears every bit of responsibility for the eventual outcome as the SEAL who put the grenade through the door.

Who is claiming that she gets a magical pass? Where does the assumption that she did not accept responsibility for her choices?

Her parents are distraught, but let's not confuse their emotions with her intentions. She wore a burqa and from all appearances certainly had a better idea of her realities on the ground than you give her any credit for; she was their as part of a hearts and minds campaign, part of the winning anti-insurgent strategy. To castigate her without cause seems premature.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Your point is well taken and I'm sure Ms. Norgrove was genuine in her compassion. That said, the time to help people torn by war is after it is over and the place is certainly not in the middle of a hostile zone.

I have to agree with Pardus and others. Warriors have enough to deal with keeping themselves and each other safe while engaging the enemy without having to rescue someone who shouldn't be there in the first place.

By your logic the Red Cross should not exist, volunteer ambulances would not exist in WWI, no NGO's should ever go anywhere where there is conflict and by extension civilian suffering, and no attempt to aid civilians should ever occur until hostilities are concluded. A nightmare scenario.

Pardus has stated an opinion that she forced our forces into rescue; you and he are wrong. There is no "requirement," and certainly she's not forcing anyone to rescue her. It is in out interest to have people like her their and to help them. If she has the power to "force" that kind of operation I would like her on my side in an anti-insurgency campaign.

I'm glad people like her exist and go where others won't. But to blame her for her volunteerism and her willingness to go to the places most would avoid is mean-spirited and small-minded. Big boy rules apply, and I'm sure she knew it, and she still went. That's admirable to me.

 

[DoctorDoom]

A'stan is a war zone, that is no place for any fucking aid worker, they can turn up when things settle down.

By then it will be too late. Civilian humanitarian aid is also crucial in an anti-insurgency campaign where all foreign military forces are viewed with distrust.

 

[pardus]

By your logic the Red Cross should not exist, volunteer ambulances would not exist in WWI, no NGO's should ever go anywhere where there is conflict and by extension civilian suffering, and no attempt to aid civilians should ever occur until hostilities are concluded. A nightmare scenario.

Pardus has stated an opinion that she forced our forces into rescue; you and he are wrong. There is no "requirement," and certainly she's not forcing anyone to rescue her. It is in out interest to have people like her their and to help them. If she has the power to "force" that kind of operation I would like her on my side in an anti-insurgency campaign.

I'm glad people like her exist and go where others won't. But to blame her for her volunteerism and her willingness to go to the places most would avoid is mean-spirited and small-minded. Big boy rules apply, and I'm sure she knew it, and she still went. That's admirable to me.

How could we not go looking for her? You really think that would fly? Rubbish.
It was the right thing to do and it is what is expected of us. I doubt there would be many British politician's willing to tell the public that they stopped the Military from looking for her and attempting a rescue.
Same would happen in the US if it was an American who ended up in the same scenario.

By then it will be too late. Civilian humanitarian aid is also crucial in an anti-insurgency campaign where all foreign military forces are viewed with distrust.

I did not say they shouldnt be there at all, I said until things settle down.
You think it would be the right thing to do to have the Salvation Army having a concert for the troops on Omaha Beach on D DAY? That would be the humanitarian thing to do right?

"All together now! Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya!"

You do not send an unarmed woman into an area that is so dangerous its an AO that SEALs operate in, that should tell you something, there are many places in A'stan she could have been at a lot lower risk.
Yeah she maybe brave but that does not mean she's not stupid or ignorant either.

 

[Brooklynben]

Who is claiming that she gets a magical pass? Where does the assumption that she did not accept responsibility for her choices?

Her parents are distraught, but let's not confuse their emotions with her intentions. She wore a burqa and from all appearances certainly had a better idea of her realities on the ground than you give her any credit for; she was their as part of a hearts and minds campaign, part of the winning anti-insurgent strategy. To castigate her without cause seems premature.

Ideologies are marvelous, but the simple reality is that any non-Muslim who walks into the middle of either Afghanistan or Pakistan right now on some humanitarian quest, is only going to end up putting more good people at risk. There's no shortage of other people around the world that need help.

I wrote this before I saw Pardus's reply. It seems we agree once again.

 

[Rapid]

No, no, no... THIS is real stupidity:

Surrounded by family and friends, Mr Dewani, 31, said it was his new wife who had made the decision to go to one of the city's poorest areas.
Mr Dewani said on Saturday night, after dinner in a suburb and a walk on the beach, they got in a taxi to head back to Cape Town.

He said that, on the way, Mrs Dewani said she would like to see some of the "real South Africa" and the taxi driver left the motorway and headed towards Gugulethu township. The plan was simply to drive through but, two miles outside, their vehicle was carjacked by armed men.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-11769913

 

[pardus]

No, no, no... THIS is real stupidity:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-11769913

Both of them are fucking idiots.
First thing to pop into my mind before I read or looked for any info was, she was raped, probably gang raped...

1 in 3 woman are raped in South Africa.

She was found dead in the vehicle 15 miles further on. A shot to the neck had severed an artery. Anni is also believed to have been sexually assaulted.

​

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3229738/Hubby-tells-of-bride-Anni-Dewanis-murder.html#ixzz15Vus2HyH​

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Educate yourself before you do something/go anywhere you fucking dumbasses.​

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Again, cops had to go into very dangerous areas to look for her, idiocy putting others lives at risk.​

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In New Zealand, if you go into the wilderness and get fucked up and have to be rescued, they investigate the circumstance of you getting fucked up, if it is determined that you were a retard, you pay the bill for the rescue.​

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Personal responsibility.
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Two examples of retards being killed in one thread, makes one want to cry....​

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Nah.
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[AssadUSMC]

So much I want to say here... As mentioned before, a lot of (incorrect) conclusions have been drawn. The woman was most definitely naive in this case - no question there.

 

[AWP]

You have to admit, Harold and Kumar go to the Korengal could be a sleeper hit next summer.

 

[Scotth]

You have to admit, Harold and Kumar go to the Korengal could be a sleeper hit next summer.

Does that mean Kal Penn has to quit the Obama Administration again? They just hired him back after he finished making the last sequel.

 

[dknob]

so where is the official report?

 

[Tropicana98]

In October, 2010, a DEVGRU team attempted to rescue Linda Norgrove, a Scottish aid worker who had been kidnapped in eastern Afghanistan by the Taliban. During a raid of a Taliban hideout, a SEAL tossed a grenade at an insurgent, not realizing that Norgrove was nearby. She died from the blast. The mistake haunted the SEALs who had been involved; three of them were subsequently expelled from DEVGRU.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle#ixzz1Vu25WYC8​

Not the official report but I thought this might shed some light on the situation.

 

[LibraryLady]

Not the official report but I thought this might shed some light on the situation.

Uh... linky goes to report on the bin Laden raid.

LL

 

[pardus]

Not the official report but I thought this might shed some light on the situation.

A, I think we all know by now what went down, right?

B, as LL said...

So... do push ups.

 

[Zach07]

If people are still following and want to know the outcome...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/02/AR2010120201654.html

Members of the rescue team have been disciplined for failing to provide a complete and full account of their actions in accordance with U.S. military procedure.

 

[moobob]

and the helicopter could crash or someone could slip and break a leg, comms could be lost etc....I WOULD HAVE NEVER USED A HELICOPTER, TO ME IT IS A GREATER RISK. This is my opinion and you will not change it. Since Vietnam the US Military has believed in gee-wiz gadgets

FYI: There are places in Afghanistan (i.e. most of it) where if you do not air assault, you lose ALL element of surprise. Villages with one way in, one way out. You cannot drive in without early warning networks picking you up from many miles away.

 

[Tropicana98]

Uh... linky goes to report on the bin Laden raid.

LL

A, I think we all know by now what went down, right?

B, as LL said...

So... do push ups.

Roger I was aware that it was on the Bin Laden raid it was just that specific excerpt...knocking em out. Apologies.

 

[AWP]

Ever play the $25,000 Pyramid?

"Your front door....a safe....a chastity belt...this thread...."

"Things that are locked!"