MARSOC A&S September/October 2011

Hitman is right, put items in your ruck that you need. Next thing you know your attempting a 12mile ruck and at 8 miles your feet are bleeding(not uncommon). There is no way to beast rucking then just rucking your ass off. Make sure you have the supplies you need and just destroy yourself. It's not fun what so ever but I assure you, you will be going against guys that have doing ruck runs for a while. Baselites are good from what I here, I have always used whatever I had but it's probably not smart. A good time for a 12 mile ruck 2 hours 30 min. As far as the land nav, practice, practice and practice. Try to get the sniper land nav points and use those for practice. If you can get those, you should be good. Just talk to whatever snipers you have nearby and see if you can run the land nav course with whatever presniper course they run.
 
I was actually talking about a foot care kit, foot powder, mole skin, foot lube, fresh socks, etc. But I'm glad you reminded me because I meant to put the med kit in there. Running around the forest you never know what you might run into, fall off of or get snagged by. Obviously there are medical facilities available, but that doesn't help you when you go cross compartment and are a mile or more from the nearest road.
 
HolyBear said:
Heel striking is tricky. I guess I have always ran like that, which might be the reason for my ankle being swollen today...:thumbsdown: Any suggestions as to how I can fix my form?
Click to expand...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN1x3Ik1t5Y
amateur trying to improve his form. (He's not perfect in the after, keep in mind.)

Usain Bolt jogging:
http://youtu.be/kgIUE8BPw-c

The pose method doesn't work for everybody, but try it out and keep to the basics of it. (Push forward with your hips. Keep your upper body straight. "Fall" forward. Don't stretch out your legs. Land on the balls of your feet.)
 
Alright I finally feel comfortable posting my times up here, so here it goes,

300m swim, Breast stroke- 7:30-7:45 depending on how I feel. (I'm at the pool every week swimming in an old set of BDU's, which gathers more attention than I like but it has to be done).
300m sidestroke- 9:30, I always do this after the breast stroke so this probably isn't the fastest I can do it. I prefer Breast stroke over side stroke but I want to be able to do both if the need arises.
Hike time- I've been focusing on speed the last couple weeks and I've been making steady progress. I'm down to 13min per mile, and I'm continuing to improve. This week I'm going to add a 15 mile hike to the two 5 miles I've been doing every week.
A&S card x1- Just added five reps this week and I'm still a little under twenty minutes. Next week I plan to add another five reps and see how it goes. I'm doing the A&S card twice a week, one day just once the other I give it two runs. I can keep good form until the last set then my form starts to suffer. When I do it twice the second run is disgusting but at that point I think it's more about the mind than the body :)
Other stuff- Pull ups are looking pretty good, I can get two good sets of twenty out without a lot of trouble. My run times are making very slow progress, I'm shooting for 19:00min (or better) for 3 miles. Right now I'm running up and down hills, which screws with my head and I end up with poor times, usually around 22-23 minutes, but I'm getting closer to my goal.

I hope this fosters a little more competition. Is Friday, you've got my ass beat when it comes to rucking! I'm gonna give you a run for your money at A&S though!
 
is friday said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN1x3Ik1t5Y
amateur trying to improve his form. (He's not perfect in the after, keep in mind.)

Usain Bolt jogging:
http://youtu.be/kgIUE8BPw-c

The pose method doesn't work for everybody, but try it out and keep to the basics of it. (Push forward with your hips. Keep your upper body straight. "Fall" forward. Don't stretch out your legs. Land on the balls of your feet.)
Click to expand...
Haha holy crap, I've been running wrong since I was five!:ROFLMAO: Alright, I can't wait to see how I feel during/after my runs now.
 
03cpl said:
Alright I finally feel comfortable posting my times up here, so here it goes,

300m swim, Breast stroke- 7:30-7:45 depending on how I feel. (I'm at the pool every week swimming in an old set of BDU's, which gathers more attention than I like but it has to be done).
300m sidestroke- 9:30, I always do this after the breast stroke so this probably isn't the fastest I can do it. I prefer Breast stroke over side stroke but I want to be able to do both if the need arises.
Hike time- I've been focusing on speed the last couple weeks and I've been making steady progress. I'm down to 13min per mile, and I'm continuing to improve. This week I'm going to add a 15 mile hike to the two 5 miles I've been doing every week.
A&S card x1- Just added five reps this week and I'm still a little under twenty minutes. Next week I plan to add another five reps and see how it goes. I'm doing the A&S card twice a week, one day just once the other I give it two runs. I can keep good form until the last set then my form starts to suffer. When I do it twice the second run is disgusting but at that point I think it's more about the mind than the body :)
Other stuff- Pull ups are looking pretty good, I can get two good sets of twenty out without a lot of trouble. My run times are making very slow progress, I'm shooting for 19:00min (or better) for 3 miles. Right now I'm running up and down hills, which screws with my head and I end up with poor times, usually around 22-23 minutes, but I'm getting closer to my goal.

I hope this fosters a little more competition. Is Friday, you've got my ass beat when it comes to rucking! I'm gonna give you a run for your money at A&S though!
Click to expand...

Wicked times 03. Your swim time is definitely spot on. I'm comfortable in the water but nothing compared to you. I'm usually around 11:00 for 300m, and that's alternating between the breast and side stroke. You've given me the motivation to live in the pool until ASPOC because now my times look ridiculous, ha-ha good on you. My short card time x2 is 41 min including the pull-ups. I also just added 5 reps to my sessions, not that it's too easy, but I know I'm capable of more reps. My 400m runs are getting better, but I'm still not happy with them. I went from 91 seconds down to 72 seconds. I know that's not great but I'm still working hard on that part of my training. Distance running is better for me. Rucking, huh there is no enjoyment in it except for the end, which is why I haul. I'm doing one 20 mile in before I go to ASPOC just to see how my body will react. The last time I added miles to the long weekend ruck I pulled 2h:53 min on a 15 miler.

Since I started the 10wk routine I've lost 17lbs, putting me at 203lbs. I completed the entire plan 3 weeks ago, so now I'm just repeating wk9/10 as a minimum like they suggest. I do 2-a-days through the week because I still enjoy my own lifting routine at the gym. Some weeks it takes away from my strength during the short card, but then on other weeks I feel wicked.

I had a funny situation occur the other week when I was swimming. I can't wear my uniform out here in Germany, so I used a hoody and jeans instead. I was fine for a couple of weeks, but then out of nowhere some douche kicked me out of the pool for wearing clothes, and during his high and mighty moment, proceeded to harass me by saying, "Vhat, you live in Deutschland jaaa, you should speak Dutch". I laughed at the dude because he has no idea how bad his life would've been if we didn't fuck up the Germans back in the day.
 
You two are doing great with your rucking and swimming. (Both of you are swimming a great deal faster than me!) If you guys haven't, add a rubber duck (rifle) to your rucking if possible. Carrying it definitely jacks up your momentum, but we were rucking with ducks in the prep course.

I think most of the reason why I'm a quick rucker is because I run with weight so often during my MCMAP courses. Hell, I run the sprints and distance with flak some weeks as a part of my schedule--inevitably I end up doing shit like that as part of whatever course I'm teaching. We'll see how fast I actually am when I get to A&S--I still burn out on jogging straight through at about miles 5-7 and have to switch to intervals. It depends on my speed. I definitely can't maintain a PFT pace!

I encourage you guys to keep pushing yourselves but don't neglect to take a day off not according to the schedule... but according to your body. If you keep rucking more than the schedule calls for and you start feeling it in your heels/knees/wherever, you need to stop... take a break. That's the way toward overuse injury, especially if you're doing some weighted travel. Also, do not let your ruck exceed 45lbs.

I was taught that when you hike with weight it is 3x's the normal stress on your joints, and when you run it is 5x's. So be careful and don't break yourself before you get to A&S. There will be plenty of that.
 
I'm on leave and going stir crazy, so here's some advice for the hump. It sounds like you guys are doing pretty good for times. Here are some pointers that you may have already figured out but humping isn't something that you just naturally know so here you go.

1. I don't know if they're still letting you wear whatever boots you want during A&S as long as they're tan. If they are I recommend almost anything other than the issued boots. I'm partial to Original Duties myself. If you've never worn any other boots you instantly feel the difference in how they fit your feet. If your stuck with the issued boots make sure they're broke in but not broken. If your sole has craps or is starting to separate from the body or you have spots in your boot that are worn through past the initial material get some new ones. Don't use the heavy ass ICB's for A&S you'll be lugging around an extra pound per foot, good for training not for the real thing. Also if you have time to try them out and get use to them get some super feet insoles, they're awesome.

2. Don't be cheap on your socks go get some smart wool socks and sock liners. Once again the regular issued socks suck. They're great for walking around in garrison, not so good for covering over 20k a day. I used smart wool socks with five finger sock liners for sniper school, getting ready for A&S, and A&S, granted my feet were already pretty broken in but with all of the things we did I only got a hot spot once, no blisters even with the issued boots during sniper.

3. DON'T tape your feet with riggers tape in an attempt to ward off blisters. Every single person that tried that one did one of two things. They either completely screwed up their feet and got dropped or had to take time to stop and take the tape off. Prep your feet and boots well in advance and you shouldn't have too many problems. If you do start to get hot spots use mole skin. Your BAS may have some or you can go to almost any drug store.

4. Take care of your feet. Do all the above, change your socks often, use foot powder, air them out when you can, make sure your toe nails are properly trimmed. A good majority of guys that probably could have at least completed the course had to quite or got dropped because their feet looked like hamburger. They probably had gone for a few 5 to 15 mile humps every couple of days or more without doing any of the above and thought they were good. There are no days to rest at A&S sometimes not even hours. You will move a lot with very little rest, you have to take care of your feet.

4. Push yourself, but pace yourself. All I could do was shake my head when we started our individual hump. More than half the guys took off running on a unknown distance hump. There was only one person that actually ran the whole thing and he was a freak. I began towards the rear of the pack for the first half of the movement and finished 8th out of everybody. A fair amount of the people that took off running never finished, I passed them sprawled out on the side of the road looking like they had just seen Jesus, and the ones that did came in middle to last. I started off at a fast walk for the first mile or so to warm up and then started doing intervals of running for a few hundred yards fast pace walk for a few hundred. Do what works for you, if you can run the whole thing good on you, but keep in mind A&S is not a one event course. You probably won't have time to completely refuel your tank so do the math.
 
According to the equipment list I was given Hitman 2/3, no--they want EGAs on your boots. When I went through in January they didn't really care so far as I could tell.

Finally put together my pack. The weight distribution seems 50x's easier than what I had going on with my deadweight assault pack, and it is fairly similar to what I had going on at the prep course. I believe my cockneyed plan to make the early part of my work-up harder got me some good returns. I am looking forward to seeing how fast I am today during my 5 miler.

edit after hike:
I was able to maintain my 10m mile pace with the change in gear. I'm going to try keeping a similar pace for my longer distances without burning out.
 
HolyBear said:
Wicked times 03. Your swim time is definitely spot on. I'm comfortable in the water but nothing compared to you. I'm usually around 11:00 for 300m, and that's alternating between the breast and side stroke. You've given me the motivation to live in the pool until ASPOC because now my times look ridiculous, ha-ha good on you. My short card time x2 is 41 min including the pull-ups. I also just added 5 reps to my sessions, not that it's too easy, but I know I'm capable of more reps. My 400m runs are getting better, but I'm still not happy with them. I went from 91 seconds down to 72 seconds. I know that's not great but I'm still working hard on that part of my training. Distance running is better for me. Rucking, huh there is no enjoyment in it except for the end, which is why I haul. I'm doing one 20 mile in before I go to ASPOC just to see how my body will react. The last time I added miles to the long weekend ruck I pulled 2h:53 min on a 15 miler.

Since I started the 10wk routine I've lost 17lbs, putting me at 203lbs. I completed the entire plan 3 weeks ago, so now I'm just repeating wk9/10 as a minimum like they suggest. I do 2-a-days through the week because I still enjoy my own lifting routine at the gym. Some weeks it takes away from my strength during the short card, but then on other weeks I feel wicked.

I had a funny situation occur the other week when I was swimming. I can't wear my uniform out here in Germany, so I used a hoody and jeans instead. I was fine for a couple of weeks, but then out of nowhere some douche kicked me out of the pool for wearing clothes, and during his high and mighty moment, proceeded to harass me by saying, "Vhat, you live in Deutschland jaaa, you should speak Dutch". I laughed at the dude because he has no idea how bad his life would've been if we didn't fuck up the Germans back in the day.
Click to expand...

72 secs for 400m is very impressive. 90 seconds is a 6 minute mile. I'm not gonna lie, running is not my strong suit.
 
is friday said:
You two are doing great with your rucking and swimming. (Both of you are swimming a great deal faster than me!) If you guys haven't, add a rubber duck (rifle) to your rucking if possible. Carrying it definitely jacks up your momentum, but we were rucking with ducks in the prep course.

I think most of the reason why I'm a quick rucker is because I run with weight so often during my MCMAP courses. Hell, I run the sprints and distance with flak some weeks as a part of my schedule--inevitably I end up doing shit like that as part of whatever course I'm teaching. We'll see how fast I actually am when I get to A&S--I still burn out on jogging straight through at about miles 5-7 and have to switch to intervals. It depends on my speed. I definitely can't maintain a PFT pace!

I encourage you guys to keep pushing yourselves but don't neglect to take a day off not according to the schedule... but according to your body. If you keep rucking more than the schedule calls for and you start feeling it in your heels/knees/wherever, you need to stop... take a break. That's the way toward overuse injury, especially if you're doing some weighted travel. Also, do not let your ruck exceed 45lbs.

I was taught that when you hike with weight it is 3x's the normal stress on your joints, and when you run it is 5x's. So be careful and don't break yourself before you get to A&S. There will be plenty of that.
Click to expand...
Good guidance all around, especially on the rucking with a rubber duck. I am going to start rucking with a stick that is similar in weight.:thumbsup: I land nav with a stick, but it's primary use is beating bushes to hell and protecting myself incase a boar is doing some land nav too.:sneaky:
 
03cpl said:
72 secs for 400m is very impressive. 90 seconds is a 6 minute mile. I'm not gonna lie, running is not my strong suit.
Click to expand...
Thanks 03. I searched around online and read that doing 50-60 seconds is good time, but if 72 sec is good, I think I've been reading threads that are based around competition runners...:confused:
 
Yeah, good sprints will obviously depend on the body type. If you are running out of gas at 90 second laps then you're probably not going to be running an 18 minute 3 miler.

The way I'm attacking the short card is a little different than the strategy you guys have. I just completed my first short card of today in 15:01. Not my best time (that's 11:05ish, and I almost died afterward--not to mention my form was probably all kinds of dicked up.) Ever since I hit under the 20:00 mark with it I have tried to improve my form and be sure I am putting as much explosive energy into the burpie jumps as possible. For example: I stop and rest when my hips start to sag or my star jumpers are not decently explosive. I also have my hands at 45 degrees to my side when I am doing exercises on my back instead of having my hands under my ass because it is more core intensive. (Try it!) I know the prep guide says to add more exercises if you are hitting under 20:00 or do it twice--but I am being very hesitant about that. There is no reason for me to hit up the short card back-to-back if in the second set my form is going to be shitty. I won't be getting any benefits if my hips are sagging during push ups or I'm doing some sluggish burpies or any number of things.

I generally wait until the second half of the day to hit the 2nd short card so that I can keep good form.
 
Good idea on the Short Card training isfriday. I can relate to you in the feeling of dying after doing the S/C like a villain - I wish those days happened more often. Definitely going to try out the hands at 45 degrees!:thumbsup: I've had my hands right at my sides (not under me):-/. I have decent form, but I can't say I'm consistent with my speed AND form. I have to go really slow sometimes in order to have perfect form on my Burps/Lunges.
Doing the S/C times two really helps me with my overall endurance, even if my form isn't the greatest, I'm still building my lungs and mind to shred myself for longer periods of time - Does that make sense?:confused:

When you do one set of the S/C twice a day (the x2 S/C on Friday's), do you feel that you're robbing yourself of endurance in the long run since you're sacrificing endurance for form?
 
HolyBear said:
Good idea on the Short Card training isfriday. I can relate to you in the feeling of dying after doing the S/C like a villain - I wish those days happened more often. Definitely going to try out the hands at 45 degrees!:thumbsup: I've had my hands right at my sides (not under me):-/. I have decent form, but I can't say I'm consistent with my speed AND form. I have to go really slow sometimes in order to have perfect form on my Burps/Lunges.
Doing the S/C times two really helps me with my overall endurance, even if my form isn't the greatest, I'm still building my lungs and mind to shred myself for longer periods of time - Does that make sense?:confused:

When you do one set of the S/C twice a day (the x2 S/C on Friday's), do you feel that you're robbing yourself of endurance in the long run since you're sacrificing endurance for form?
Click to expand...
No. After two minutes of any activity you are hitting your slow twitch muscle fibers. So by breaking it up into two sets I can hit my Strength-Power, Sustained-Power, and Anaerobic Power-Endurance twice instead of all of those once.

Strength-Power: 0-3 seconds all out effort. (Power lift, high jump, throwing an object.)
Sustained-Power: 0-10 seconds near max effort. (Sprints.)
Anaerobic Power-Endurance: 1-2 minutes. (400 meter dash, 100-yard swim.)
Aerobic-Endurance: 2+ minutes.

So you may have wondered all your life why you don't really need to breathe for the first 10 seconds of a sprint, (I did--because I had the bad habit of not doing so....) This is why. Your energy systems are divided into different categories that involve your ATP/CP energy pathways, lactic acid, and oxidative pathways.

It's fine if you want to power through both rounds of the short card back-to-back, but you're going to be working your Aerobic (oxidative) pathway primarily. I'm using the short card for Strength since I'm not lifting weights. If you're lifting weights (deadlifts, squats, etc.) then that's perfectly fine and you won't be any worse off from it. Just don't neglect your back and make sure that you're getting strength training to go along with your endurance exercise.

15-20 minutes of 100% proper form calisthenic exercise is more than enough to kill anybody that's going as fast as they can manage. Getting proper form is going to burn you out in a much more meaningful way than just trudging through it and half-assing it, anyway. I am still well under 20 minutes and I take quite a few "breathers" during the card in order to maintain good form. (Fuck you, star jumpers!)

My advice: Eat a lot of calories if you're going to go SC back-to-back. You're going to lose muscle that way if you don't keep yourself well-fed.

If anyone with more knowledge on the subject wants to pitch in I'd be more than happy to take some professional advice on the matter. I'm just a student, after all.
 
is friday said:
No. After two minutes of any activity you are hitting your slow twitch muscle fibers. So by breaking it up into two sets I can hit my Strength-Power, Sustained-Power, and Anaerobic Power-Endurance twice instead of all of those once.

Strength-Power: 0-3 seconds all out effort. (Power lift, high jump, throwing an object.)
Sustained-Power: 0-10 seconds near max effort. (Sprints.)
Anaerobic Power-Endurance: 1-2 minutes. (400 meter dash, 100-yard swim.)
Aerobic-Endurance: 2+ minutes.

So you may have wondered all your life why you don't really need to breathe for the first 10 seconds of a sprint, (I did--because I had the bad habit of not doing so....) This is why. Your energy systems are divided into different categories that involve your ATP/CP energy pathways, lactic acid, and oxidative pathways.

It's fine if you want to power through both rounds of the short card back-to-back, but you're going to be working your Aerobic (oxidative) pathway primarily. I'm using the short card for Strength since I'm not lifting weights. If you're lifting weights (deadlifts, squats, etc.) then that's perfectly fine and you won't be any worse off from it. Just don't neglect your back and make sure that you're getting strength training to go along with your endurance exercise.

15-20 minutes of 100% proper form calisthenic exercise is more than enough to kill anybody that's going as fast as they can manage. Getting proper form is going to burn you out in a much more meaningful way than just trudging through it and half-assing it, anyway. I am still well under 20 minutes and I take quite a few "breathers" during the card in order to maintain good form. (Fuck you, star jumpers!)

My advice: Eat a lot of calories if you're going to go SC back-to-back. You're going to lose muscle that way if you don't keep yourself well-fed.

If anyone with more knowledge on the subject wants to pitch in I'd be more than happy to take some professional advice on the matter. I'm just a student, after all.
Click to expand...
Holy bear turds... I had to read this a couple of times, and still I don't think I fully comprehend what you mean. The few things I knew about you're spot on with:thumbsup:. Did you learn this in ASPOC, or are you taking college classes? I took a Nutrition class last year and all that I got from it was how to read food labels, do my BMI, and create diet plans - pretty elementary compared to what you unleashed. I think the good thing about me is that all I do is eat. Chow is continuous in my eyes. I'm the guy that everyone hates at work because I'm demolishing six hard boiled eggs (only 3 yolks) and a 1lb of low fat cottage cheese right when I get to work. They talk shit, but I always tell them that I will stop when start to look like them in my uniform (stuffed bag of cat assholes - The reservists I work with are gross).
 
Yesterday's long night ruck was sick, but I have some concerns. Hitman 2/3 mentioned we should pace ourselves, because Assessment isn't a one event evaluation. I did my best on the ruck, I got a wicked time, but I was next to useless afterwards, and I had cuts on my hips from the waist strap. If I pull shit like that during A&S, I think I would screw myself. With that being said, doing my very best puts me down for the count, so is it safe to say that we as individuals should find our happy medium before we go to Assessment (do the best we can do while saving fuel for whatever they throw our way next, and focus on staying consistent with our medium throughout the evaluation)? Any guidance on this idea would be great.

The other concern I have is the cuts I have. Any remedy for preventing those straps from rubbing the skin off in the future?
 
You pretty much nailed it. You don't want to be dragging ass, but you can't go balls to the wall either. If it was a single event, or even a single day then sure leave it all on the field. But in this case you'll need to be good for multiple days and events. Think of it like a marathon, to finish with a good time you have to push to the limit of your jogging, but if you push past that into the sprint area you'll run out of gas long before you finish. You may be able to sustain a slow sprint for a mile or two but you'll never finish the 24 miles. The moral being push to your limit but your limit for that evolution. Find the pace at which you know your pushing it, but you know you can maintain it. Also keep in mind there's nothing to say that towards the end of an event, just like the end of a PFT run, you can't pick up the pace to get just a little bit more under your time.

As far as the cuts go, if its the kidney pad that is rubbing you raw take a piece of iso mat that is slightly larger height wise than the actual pad and use riggers tap to secure it to the pad. Tap it from top to bottom so that as the pack moves up and down the only thing that is rubbing is the smooth portion of the tape. You'll probably have to play with it to get it just right but you should see instant improvement. If its the straps, which you should be using, you can try the same thing. Unfortunately with the old school ruck that you have to use this is kind of unavoidable on long fast paced movement, but the iso and tape should help.

Just keep in mind, your going to be hurting and its going to suck. You'll get hot spots, tired feet, scratches, bruises, etc. But that's just part of the deal, the thing that you don't want to have happen is that you get broken or so smoked that your delirious and unable to perform.
 

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