Military Athlete

[Etype]

With 5/3/1, you're taking a big set back because of the rigid set/rep scheme. You get a bit of a repetition method/max effort stress with the max rep sets, but the weight is too heavy for it to be repetition method and too light to be max effort.

For a run + strength program, the Westside Barbell template and running is awesome, just lighten the accessory work to save some energy for running. If you get your dynamic effort workouts dialed in and use bands and box squats, you can't even come close to the strength gains from the Westside method.

 

[surgicalcric]

http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

For those who have been asking me about 5/3/1 programming, here is a simple to use formula.

Crip



http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

 

[Bloodline]

This is from another thread but my question is about Military Athlete so I'm posting here.

http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/looking-for-a-special-forces-mentor.5135/page-2

Etype said....

The key point is, you have to do all these things and BE ABLE TO DO THEM AGAIN TOMORROW, AND THE NEXT DAY- for however long selection is.

My recent training history is that I used to do Crossfit with 2 other guys and I switched over to Military Athlete about 8 months ago. I experienced some of the loss of running ability that's already been discussed so I took Rob's advice to cut back to 3 Operator WODs per week and add more run/ruck days. It's been good and I'd recommend the split for general fitness not for any selection prep. The BDTDs and the SOF commands have thoroughly covered selection prep.

My question is about the ability to recover from intense work which Military Athlete claims to train. One of the previously mentioned Crossfit friends recently did a WOD with me. It was a rough session and the next day his legs were hammered but I felt fine and I went on a ruck. Has anyone else felt an improvement in their ability to train hard and come again back the next day (or several days) from Military Athlete?

Nothing against Crossfit, it's a fine program with lots of great athletes.

 

[SkrewzLoose]

Has anyone else felt an improvement in their ability to train hard and come again back the next day (or several days) from Military Athlete?

Yes. I've been doing MA for about 4 months now. I'm 3 weeks into their Big 24 which is a 4 week long focus on strength. I'm starting to hate the feel of the BB and chalk on my hands. It's fucking hard for me. And there are guys on their site lifting twice what I'm lifting. Before that it was 2 weeks of grueling stamina work. Most of those days I was in the gym for 90-120 minutes doing 20 rounds of XYZ then 20 rounds of ABC. I wanted to cry, puke, quit, die, etc... I added up the exercises one day and it would come out to about 800 reps per 20 rounds of XYZ. So anywhere from 1,000 to nearly twice that many reps in a workout depending on how quickly you moved. I have never spent that amount of time in the gym doing constant work. But, I managed to continue showing up and pressing on the next day...
I hope this answers your question(s).

 

[Bloodline]

Yeah, I'm familiar with joys of training with Rob. It's fun to push yourself like that, right?

How have you measured the improvement? My Op Ugly score has increased as well as my major lifts but those are all single events. I have no indicator of my ability to work hard for days on end improving besides the next day difference between my CF buddy and I.

Have fun with Big 24! I'm in the stamina cycle right behind you and looking forward to my beloved squat cleans!

 

[CDG]

Yeah, I'm familiar with joys of training with Rob. It's fun to push yourself like that, right?

How have you measured the improvement? My Op Ugly score has increased as well as my major lifts but those are all single events. I have no indicator of my ability to work hard for days on end improving besides the next day difference between my CF buddy and I.

Have fun with Big 24! I'm in the stamina cycle right behind you and looking forward to my beloved squat cleans!

The ability to recover from intense, sustained effort, and be ready to go again the next day is the biggest benefit I have seen from MA. I've been doing it for just over a year now, and was doing CF for a couple years before I started MA. I will say that I have not really seen a decrease in my running or rucking ability. My Operator Ugly score has improved significantly every time I have taken it, but that should be no surprise that the test the program uses would be a test you would see improvement on. What has impressed me the most is that my short duration work capacity seems to be about the same as when I was doing CF and my strength has gone up. I have set PRs on several lifts during the MA program, despite the added volume. The one thing I do not like about the program is that it can get tedious at times. Doing 100 Curtis Ps for time every week for 4 weeks gets a little old. In that same vein, I wish his programming branched out a little more as far as the movements it utilizes. In the grand scheme of trying to prep for a SOF Selection though, I think that may end up being of benefit as it trains mental fitness.

 

[OS3]

Most of those days I was in the gym for 90-120 minutes doing 20 rounds of XYZ then 20 rounds of ABC. I wanted to cry, puke, quit, die, etc... I added up the exercises one day and it would come out to about 800 reps per 20 rounds of XYZ. So anywhere from 1,000 to nearly twice that many reps in a workout depending on how quickly you moved. I have never spent that amount of time in the gym doing constant work. But, I managed to continue showing up and pressing on the next day...

This! And when I blew my left VMO (dislocated knee cap) on an O-course last September, Rob sent me a 6-week suck it up program. Now I'm 2 1/2 months into working back to the strength and scaling the training big time. I feel beat the hell up after this morning's training. Back at it tomorrow!

 

[Etype]

My question is about the ability to recover from intense work which Military Athlete claims to train. One of the previously mentioned Crossfit friends recently did a WOD with me. It was a rough session and the next day his legs were hammered but I felt fine and I went on a ruck. Has anyone else felt an improvement in their ability to train hard and come again back the next day (or several days) from Military Athlete?

Here's the deal with following CF or MA, they are one size fits all- and that size is not yours, no matter who you are. They are good programs, but have their flaws if you try to use them as a catch all. They are not designed for you, they do not address your weaknesses, and they are not designed around equipment you have access to.

The biggest problem I have with MA is set/rep schemes. I've bashed set rep schemes ad nauseum in other threads- because I think they suck. I've done a workout that went like this- Squat 185 x100- 100 reps squat at my body weight without putting the bar down. It works for me, but will it work for you or someone else? Maybe not. I use the westside method for strength, it's the best, hands down- look at the records. However, it has problems, too. You don't get enough reps of the actually exercises in so it depends almost solely on assistance exercises to address imbalances.

The problems I have with CF is games specific training. Kipping pullups really aren't necessary for non competitors. They are a great workout tool, and I use them- but just do a search on the CF discussion board for SLAP tear or torn labrum and read away. Another horrible exercise is the sumo deadlift high pull- read here http://beastmodaldomains.com/2011/10/19/come-at-me-coach-volume-ii-why-do-we-do-this/#more-690 so I don't have to explain. Crossfit talks all the time about scaling for intensity- and that is the key. If it takes you 7 minutes to do fran, you need to use jumping pull ups and/or lighter thrusters so you can work faster and get the same response. If it only takes you 1:20 to do grace at 135, you need to do it at 225. The badass games athletes are that way because they DON'T follow the mainsite wod- not even close.

My fitness really broke through after I learned how CF was programmed, along with already having a decent handle on the westside method. I now do my own programming which address my weaknesses and maintains my strengths. I'm not the fittest dude in town, but I'm better off than most. My numbers for transparency sake-
5'10", 180 lbs 405 squat, 275 bench, 515 deadlift, 190 OH press, 275 front squat, 255 clean and jerk 13:10-13:20 2 miler, 35:38 5 mile

 

[CDG]

To add to what I said previously, I agree with Etype on the MA set/rep schemes. Not just that, but the structure of some the workouts does not work for me, so I change it. For example, if it's a strength day I do not try and blaze through as fast as possible. I take time between sets so I can really push the weight on whatever lift I am doing. If that means I am in the gym for 90 minutes, so be it. I enjoy strength work and when I do it I do it for the purpose of lifting as heavy as possible, not turning it into a strength/work capacity hybrid session. Also, in his Big 24 program, for example, he has you go from 8 sets of 3 power clean and push press/jerk into 8 sets of 3 squat cleans. He says to start at the end load of your PC+PP and go up from there. This does not work for me because it leaves me nowhere to go. I hit 225# for a triple on the PC+PP and 245# for a triple on the squat clean tonight. If I had started my squat clean sets at 225# I am not only starting much heavier than I feel comfortable with, but I have nowhere to go after set 2 or 3. So I start at 135# and make my jumps from there based on how I am feeling.

 

[Etype]

In addition, purposefully doing a full squat clean is counter productive to a good clean. You catch the bar as high as you can given your strength on the second pull. If an olympic athlete could power clean or muscle snatch a world record, he would- he wouldn't drop down into a full front squat or deep overhead squat because that's what his program said to do. If the weight is heavy and you have to go deep, do it, but don't bs because some guy said to.

 

[CDG]

In addition, purposefully doing a full squat clean is counter productive to a good clean. You catch the bar as high as you can given your strength on the second pull. If an olympic athlete could power clean or muscle snatch a world record, he would- he wouldn't drop down into a full front squat or deep overhead squat because that's what his program said to do. If the weight is heavy and you have to go deep, do it, but don't bs because some guy said to.

Agreed. If I am on my way to finding a 1RM or 3RM squat clean though, then I am purposefully working towards a weight heavy enough to force me to drop into a squat to be able to make the catch. I would rather warm up that technique starting from a light weight as opposed to only doing it when I have to. There is merit to both lifts. I have known Oly coaches who did not let their athletes do power cleans, and yet others use them extensively to train the 1st and 2nd pulls. Just goes to show how fluid training is and that, as you said, there is no one size fits all program. Some places are better starting points than others, but once you have some experience you should start to play around with various things and see what works for you and what you enjoy.

 

[lancero]

Etype,
Since you like Crossfit and Westside, what do you think of Rudy Nielsen's "Limited Conjugate Method?" Supposedly, he mixes CF and Westside stuff.

http://outlawcoach.wordpress.com/about/

 

[F.CASTLE]

Etype , are you scheduling your own running? Thats always been the difficult part for me. Trying to find a happy medium between strength and speed/endurance. Our numbers are fairly similar, Although your a few inches shorter than me and lighter. Ive found a lot of success previously with running a lot of medium distance intervals, however my lower body strength (Squat particularly) fell significantly as I was trying to bring my speed up which sacrificed some of my strength training.

Also, whats the consensus on sweat technique with you guys? Are you low bar or high bar squatting? I'll be honest and say that I mix both up but mostly because Im not 100% comfortable with the Low Bar Squat.

 

[Etype]

Lancero- Outlaw looks awesome. I've seen it referenced in other places, the coach has a real scientific approach which is what I think a lot of CF is lacking. When someone like him gets the nuts and bolts of it down, they're gonna blow CF wide open like Louie did with powerlifting.

castle- I program all of my everything. I use the G/W/M programming format from CF. When M (monostructural endurance) is up by itself I usually run 5 miles. When there is one M plus something else, I run 400 or 800m intervals in the workout, when there are 2 Ms, I run plus row or jump rope. So, I run a bit in my programming, usually once per 3 day period.

When I squat, it's always low bar and wide stance, and usually on a 17" box which is about 2.5" below parallel for me and puts my hip crease below my knee so no one can say I'm cheating. The purpose of the squat is to build strength in hip extension, a low bar squat in a wide stance moves the most weight, so is therefore the most effective. I also front squat and overhead squat, so adding one more squat angle in there just doesn't appeal to me.

 

[F.CASTLE]

Etype - I feel that despite having my CF Cert, Im still not knowledgeable enough to follow programming format on my own. I Follow CFFB SWOD and DWOD, and then usually run intervals on Tue and Friday, then one Long run (usually 5 miles) My strength numbers have seen a steady increase and my speed over distance has gone up as well as my capacity over intervals. (Keeping my splits within 2-5 sec of eacother. However I feel like Im never going to run back to back to back 6 - Sub 6 minute miles, which is the obvious goal. Perhaps Im just being impatient with my gains at this point. Do you feel that 6 min miles is a fair standard? Or too fast/slow? Ive always been FAST, I played college football, ran track etc... But Speed endurance has always been difficult for me. I can run 13 min 2 miles, but carrying that speed over to 5+ is where I am lacking.

My problem with low bar squatting is that Im uncomfortable with the more extreme back angle at heavier loads. I definitely feel safer and sounder technique when utilizing the High Bar, however I do feel a lack of "drive". Im definitely more powerful with a low bar, I also might add that I don't utilize a different stance for each respective style. I just make sure I go nice and deep (dynamax ball depth, crease well below the knee) and drive hard.

 

[Etype]

Widening your stance will make your back more vertical. As long as you keep your toes generally straight, a wide stance has the same hamstring involvement. Box squats are really the key. Pausing on the box takes the stretch reflex out of the lift and makes it concentric only, like a deadlift.

I'm not a good runner, and not really interested in it. I score with 3-4 points of the max on the APFT run, can easily run a 5 miler, and can pretty comfortably knock out a 2.5 hour 12 miler. What I really want to do at this point is get my OHP over 200, and my bench and clean and jerk over 300 without gaining weight. I do focus a lot on my running form, mainly for injury prevention- but it has helped me get faster.

 

[SkrewzLoose]

Widening your stance will make your back more vertical. As long as you keep your toes generally straight, a wide stance has the same hamstring involvement.

x2
My brother got me to widen my stance while doing squats and it helped tremendously. I'm 6'4" and I always blamed the severe back angle at the bottom of my squat on my height. Not the case. I widened my stance, pointed my toes out SLIGHTLY and I'm able to stay more vertical for longer than before.

 

[CDG]

Also, whats the consensus on sweat technique with you guys? Are you low bar or high bar squatting? I'll be honest and say that I mix both up but mostly because Im not 100% comfortable with the Low Bar Squat.

I use Low Bar. I used to use the High Bar, but as I progressed in weight, it became very painful to have the bar sitting across my traps. I also found that I can keep my torso more vertical with the Low Bar. I think of pushing my shoulder blades back into the bar, particularly when firing out of the bottom. It helps to drive my chest up first, as opposed to my hips lifting and leaving me with a very heavy Good Morning.

 

[CDG]

What I really want to do at this point is get my OHP over 200, and my bench and clean and jerk over 300 without gaining weight. I do focus a lot on my running form, mainly for injury prevention- but it has helped me get faster.

Etype - Bill Starr has some great stuff out there for building Press strength. He says his number one exercise for improving the press is weighted dips (on a bar, not rings). He also advocates the use of "Press Starts". A Press Start is where you but more than your 1RM on the bar and press it as high as possible for 3-5 reps. Here's an article he wrote called "The Quest For A Stronger Overhead Press".

http://startingstrength.com/articles/stronger_press_starr.pdf

 

[F.CASTLE]

I use Low Bar. I used to use the High Bar, but as I progressed in weight, it became very painful to have the bar sitting across my traps..

CDG - Maybe you should stop being a weak faggot and suck it up.....

High Bar is comfortable for me, but thats because Ive always squatted that way and Ive always had enough Trap padding.... That being said... Im definitely more powerful in the low bar, Im going to give a wider stance a shot and see how it feels.

Etype - As far as running goes, I hate it myself, however #1 - Im a competitive bastard, #2 - For whatever reason our respective MOS'/Military feel the need to base a lot of our testing on LSD running (whether it be a selection or PFT based test), #3 - If the time comes that I have to run awhile and fast I want to do it at maximal capacity. Im trying to smoke some bitches.