If something is broke you try and fix it, you save the nuclear option until all other avenues are explored.
National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (please review page 1)
- Thread starter Ooh-Rah
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If something is broke you try and fix it, you save the nuclear option until all other avenues are explored.
I saw nothing about "proven" alternatives to police in either article.
I did see reference to "street teams" in the second article. That sounds a bit like "gangs" to me. Even if the professed purpose is to descalate a situation, that's hard to do with an armed robber.
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I am not joking, they are referring to sending psychologists and medical personnel to be first on scene to attempt non-violent outcomes.
I've seen that, and honestly it doesn't sound like a completely bad idea on its face to send people who actually have some training in that, but as @Kaldak just referenced; you still need somebody able to control the situation if shit goes sideways.
Why not keep police but focus more on training them with basic psych/med knowledge to attempt to control situations, as opposed to sending out some unarmed social worker?
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Also underpaid. You want a social worker revolt? That's how you get one.
Blizzard
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Nope. I say fuck 'em.
At this point, I'm grabbing a lawn chair and going to watch this dumpster fire burn.
I think we tried something similar in Afghanistan, with the... Sociology Teams? Human Terrain Teams? I forget what we called them.
It didn't work well, because the two groups (sociologists and military) had fundamentally different, and often conflicting, goals, tactics, and perceptions about what they were there to do. Also, the former was utterly useless without the latter.
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So you're telling me: as an under-paid, under-appreciated, under-funded paramedic working in an inundated and completely overwhelmed medical system, I am also now going to be responsible for being first responder to potentially violent non-medical calls, all while unarmed and lacking training in any kind of defensive tactics besides the sweet soothing sound of my voice?
What the fuck is 2020?
What the fuck is 2020?
I don't understand how this "disband the police" movement is getting so out of hand. The reason just about every functional government in the world has one, is because it works.
As a group, people are greedy, violent, petty, and easily led. If they are not keep in check by the rule of law backed up by the threat of legitimately-employed state violence, they revert to their true nature. Our country is "Exhibit A."
Without a police force, you'll first have individual vigilantes... then small groups... then big groups... then everyone has a group... then some of the big groups unite under a warlord... who then goes around subjugating other warlords (because hegemony is the only way to be legitimately safe).
Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, collectively, are "Exhibit B."
Meanwhile, everyone is reduced to serfdom, because hey, at least we have security. And besides, what are we going to do about it? The Brute Squad is the only ones with money, weapons, and organization.
But over time, a middle class begins to emerge. The Brute Squad doesn't like it, but they like the taxes they can squeeze out of it. And then the middle class begins clamoring for their "rights," especially property rights. And if the Brute Squad and its petty despot leader doesn't grant it to them, they revolt. Or, worse yet, they stop producing things. And then the tax base goes in the toilet, and then it's really hard to pay the Brute Squad or buy those new palaces or shiny swords or tanks or gold crowns, or whatever.
So the middle class starts getting rights, and the Brute Squad starts protecting them, and their property, and then more and more people start climbing out of poverty, and start clamoring for more and more rights. Capitalism and trade kick in, and LOTS of people start making money. And then LOTS of people want these pesky things called "rights," especially property rights. At this point, the government can either become represssive (North Korea) or permissive (UK). But either way, you don't want lots of little fiefdoms with their own militaries, so the government starts consolidating power, and a whole bunch of little Brute Squads become one big Brute Squad.
...and then the Brute Squad isn't the Brute Squad anymore, it's a professional, dedicated, and highly trained police force.
And so we are right back where we started.
If you destroy the police force, or if you "defund" it into ineffectiveness, you destroy the middle class. Without the middle class, the upper class and lower class will be perpetually at war with each other, until the lower class overthrows (and becomes) the upper class, or the upper class repressses and enslaves the lower class.
As a group, people are greedy, violent, petty, and easily led. If they are not keep in check by the rule of law backed up by the threat of legitimately-employed state violence, they revert to their true nature. Our country is "Exhibit A."
Without a police force, you'll first have individual vigilantes... then small groups... then big groups... then everyone has a group... then some of the big groups unite under a warlord... who then goes around subjugating other warlords (because hegemony is the only way to be legitimately safe).
Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, collectively, are "Exhibit B."
Meanwhile, everyone is reduced to serfdom, because hey, at least we have security. And besides, what are we going to do about it? The Brute Squad is the only ones with money, weapons, and organization.
But over time, a middle class begins to emerge. The Brute Squad doesn't like it, but they like the taxes they can squeeze out of it. And then the middle class begins clamoring for their "rights," especially property rights. And if the Brute Squad and its petty despot leader doesn't grant it to them, they revolt. Or, worse yet, they stop producing things. And then the tax base goes in the toilet, and then it's really hard to pay the Brute Squad or buy those new palaces or shiny swords or tanks or gold crowns, or whatever.
So the middle class starts getting rights, and the Brute Squad starts protecting them, and their property, and then more and more people start climbing out of poverty, and start clamoring for more and more rights. Capitalism and trade kick in, and LOTS of people start making money. And then LOTS of people want these pesky things called "rights," especially property rights. At this point, the government can either become represssive (North Korea) or permissive (UK). But either way, you don't want lots of little fiefdoms with their own militaries, so the government starts consolidating power, and a whole bunch of little Brute Squads become one big Brute Squad.
...and then the Brute Squad isn't the Brute Squad anymore, it's a professional, dedicated, and highly trained police force.
And so we are right back where we started.
If you destroy the police force, or if you "defund" it into ineffectiveness, you destroy the middle class. Without the middle class, the upper class and lower class will be perpetually at war with each other, until the lower class overthrows (and becomes) the upper class, or the upper class repressses and enslaves the lower class.
The other alternative outcome will be similar to the favelas in Brazil, where the crooks provide the safety & security in certain areas. Nice.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Interestingly people try to talk about Camden, NJ, reform of their police as some sort of shining light. Camden had a peaceful protest.
Camden used to be one of the most dangerous cities to live in, in America. But hello...going from 67 Murders in 2012 to 25 in 2019 is something to be proud of...but that is still a horrible number. I supposed going from 1 per 1k residents to 1 per 3k residents is great, but that is not SAFE. Camden disbanded their police force and reformed their police force and then contracted services to the county. The county police force then tripled in size.
The City That Remade Its Police Department
But if anyone says that is a pure model to follow, I'd disagree.
Camden used to be one of the most dangerous cities to live in, in America. But hello...going from 67 Murders in 2012 to 25 in 2019 is something to be proud of...but that is still a horrible number. I supposed going from 1 per 1k residents to 1 per 3k residents is great, but that is not SAFE. Camden disbanded their police force and reformed their police force and then contracted services to the county. The county police force then tripled in size.
The City That Remade Its Police Department
But if anyone says that is a pure model to follow, I'd disagree.
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Blizzard
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That's what I expect to occur with Minneapolis as well.
@Ooh-Rah, this is why legislation is needed right now to prevent even one dime of taxpayer money from anyone outside of Minneapolis, especially Hennepin County, from being used to cover increased policing costs incurred by other agencies, such as Hennepin County Sheriff's Office or Minnesota State Patrol, to cover Minneapolis' stupidity.
That's what I think about as well...
Iraq's militias, Afghan tribes, Somali warlords, Autodefensas in Mexico...
The list of successes is virtually endless...
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
In these situations in general, the municipality will contract services to the county. In LA county you have several municipalities that contract service agreements for both fire and Law Enforcement. Most of those municipalities tend to be under 50k people though. LA County FD wouldn't really exist if municipalities that contract them had their own FDs and the Sheriff's department would actually be very small overall. In a lot of places the Sheriff's do limited Law Enforcement.
And it's been done. What a group of idiots.
Nine member majority of Minneapolis City Council announce support for dismantling MPD
ETA: We previously discussed how the other officers were charged. We didn't know what with. Well, all four dudes are charged with 2nd Degree Murder and 2nd Degree manslaughter. They're gonna walk.
Who are the Four Officers Involved with the George Floyd In-Custody Death?
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Ehhh. Camden is still a fucking shithole. I've been there, not to long ago, have a few friends that are paramedics there, one was one of my groomsmen, always in the news but yeah, they moved from a city police dept to Camden County Police but it's still full of scallywag hoodlums with good people stuck there, just like Philly, across the river.
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