National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (please review page 1)

AWP said:
Thank you for your post, but the staff has already addressed this. If you have an issue with someone's post, please use the Report feature in the lower left-hand corner of the offending post.
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I don't hold any current issue - this is a resubmission of a message I wrote posted three minutes after @Ooh-Rah closed the thread.

You are more than welcome to delete that specific line if it is less relevant now due to the vitriol being sorted.
 
Ranger Psych said:
I don't get what reallocating the funds has to do with the legal ramifications that LE's required for parking enforcement. You'd need more funds for more officers to be able to enforce the laws as they stand now.
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If the county were to stand up a department that handled parking enforcement, the work could be done by non-sworn employees who would be paid less but probably in the role longer because there would be a career path that led to managerial roles.

An upside for law enforcement is that officers would be able to do more of the work they want to do than the work they don't want to do.

The bowdlerized version of "defund the police" can very easily get in the way of a serious conversation about "what's the best way to spend public funds." There's a website Transparent California that allows one to look at how much public employees earn. And budget information for municipalities and counties are readily available, as are job descriptions.

Officers are not paid as much as they should and their job descriptions include tasks that may not be the best use of their time. If boxes were moved around on organizational charts and money were reallocated, you could get more bang for the buck without necessarily firing anyone or cutting anyone's pay. (You get rid of a couple of bad apple officers, fill their roles with officers who were previously doing parking.)
 
Sigaba said:
If the county were to stand up a department that handled parking enforcement, the work could be done by non-sworn employees who would be paid less but probably in the role longer because there would be a career path that led to managerial roles.

An upside for law enforcement is that officers would be able to do more of the work they want to do than the work they don't want to do.

The bowdlerized version of "defund the police" can very easily get in the way of a serious conversation about "what's the best way to spend public funds." There's a website Transparent California that allows one to look at how much public employees earn. And budget information for municipalities and counties are readily available, as are job descriptions.

Officers are not paid as much as they should and their job descriptions include tasks that may not be the best use of their time. If boxes were moved around on organizational charts and money were reallocated, you could get more bang for the buck without necessarily firing anyone or cutting anyone's pay. (You get rid of a couple of bad apple officers, fill their roles with officers who were previously doing parking.)
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There are a lot of departments that specifically have parking enforcement roles. And many cities that have separate departments for that. LA as one example:

Parking Enforcement Home - LADOT
 
Sigaba said:
The relationship between civil disturbances and a lack of economic development years later is not always linear.
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ThunderHorse said:
Sorry, I wholly disagree.
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For your position to be correct, every decision to not invest in a project in areas of the greater L.A. region is driving by a single consideration every time.

FWIW, my point of view is based upon my work at a consultancy that does a lot of work in the L.A. area, it remains my position that the decision making process is complicated and, IME, the assessment of risk is not about the possibility of riots or natural disasters.
 
Sigaba said:
If the county were to stand up a department that handled parking enforcement, the work could be done by non-sworn employees who would be paid less but probably in the role longer because there would be a career path that led to managerial roles.

An upside for law enforcement is that officers would be able to do more of the work they want to do than the work they don't want to do.

The bowdlerized version of "defund the police" can very easily get in the way of a serious conversation about "what's the best way to spend public funds." There's a website Transparent California that allows one to look at how much public employees earn. And budget information for municipalities and counties are readily available, as are job descriptions.

Officers are not paid as much as they should and their job descriptions include tasks that may not be the best use of their time. If boxes were moved around on organizational charts and money were reallocated, you could get more bang for the buck without necessarily firing anyone or cutting anyone's pay. (You get rid of a couple of bad apple officers, fill their roles with officers who were previously doing parking.)
Click to expand...

In much of urban California, police are very well compensated. My cousin ( SD county Sheriffs deputy) made well over 150k in total compensation, and over 105k just in base salary(no overtime or shift differential included) That is two years old, (as that is how Transparent California normally works.) Police in most of California are very well paid, especially considering there is very little educational requirement. Idk how much you think police should be paid, but that seems like it is enough.
 
I cannot even imagine trying to a cop under these circumstances.

Minneapolis officers responding to shootings met with 'hostile' crowds

Minneapolis police officers responding to separate shootings Friday night were met with angry crowds that impeded them from doing their job, a department spokesman said Saturday.

Around 11:25 p.m. in the 3800 block of Chicago Avenue — near the site where George Floyd was killed May 25 while in police custody — officers responded to a reported shooting. A man had shot himself and bystanders were administering CPR, according to police.

Officers tried to provide aid upon arrival but encountered “hostile” crowds that impeded them, police spokesman John Elder said. The man was taken to HCMC, where he died. Elder said it is not clear if the shooting was a suicide or an accident. Police are investigating.
 
Dvr55119 said:
Police in most of California are very well paid, especially considering there is very little educational requirement. Idk how much you think police should be paid, but that seems like it is enough.
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One could very well argue that's actually pretty shit pay, considered the costs, starting with health insurance and expenses and prices of living in Cali, not even going into departments that have to fund everything themselves - and like solid gear were cheap...

So yeah. Nah. Don't think more messages of the 'cops are soo well paid', while rioting crowds about everybody scream for even less funds, are an useful thing to put up.

Not a cop and it's not that personal to me either, but respect the everloving hell of still serving officers.
 
Sigaba said:
If the county were to stand up a department that handled parking enforcement, the work could be done by non-sworn employees who would be paid less but probably in the role longer because there would be a career path that led to managerial roles.

An upside for law enforcement is that officers would be able to do more of the work they want to do than the work they don't want to do.

The bowdlerized version of "defund the police" can very easily get in the way of a serious conversation about "what's the best way to spend public funds." There's a website Transparent California that allows one to look at how much public employees earn. And budget information for municipalities and counties are readily available, as are job descriptions.

Officers are not paid as much as they should and their job descriptions include tasks that may not be the best use of their time. If boxes were moved around on organizational charts and money were reallocated, you could get more bang for the buck without necessarily firing anyone or cutting anyone's pay. (You get rid of a couple of bad apple officers, fill their roles with officers who were previously doing parking.)
Click to expand...


You're ignoring the major issue.

The LAW requires SWORN ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS to issue citations.

Moving the money around and standing up another specific department that handles parking enforcement with non-sworn officers won't do SHIT till you CHANGE THE FUCKING REQUIREMENTS specifically about citations.

The first task is getting legislators at the STATE level that will change things. Good luck with that.
 
Sigaba said:
For your position to be correct, every decision to not invest in a project in areas of the greater L.A. region is driving by a single consideration every time.

FWIW, my point of view is based upon my work at a consultancy that does a lot of work in the L.A. area, it remains my position that the decision making process is complicated and, IME, the assessment of risk is not about the possibility of riots or natural disasters.
Click to expand...
LA is not the only model. You can look at several cities as @Polar Bear listed. Following these riots the cities lost massive investment that they previously had. Red tape or not these companies choose to go elsewhere.
 
Dvr55119 said:
In much of urban California, police are very well compensated. My cousin ( SD county Sheriffs deputy) made well over 150k in total compensation, and over 105k just in base salary(no overtime or shift differential included) That is two years old, (as that is how Transparent California normally works.) Police in most of California are very well paid, especially considering there is very little educational requirement. Idk how much you think police should be paid, but that seems like it is enough.
Click to expand...

You're using his salary number as a basis for your personal position, which is clearly agenda based. Cost of living in San Diego county is stupid. You have to compensate people well enough for them to live close enough to the locale they work in. There is no cheap place to live in SD County.

For example, the different between living and Raleigh and in San Diego based on cost of living is +51%. So if I'm going to reverse that, based on your cousin's base salary moving from San Diego to Raleigh that is a difference of -34%. The starting salary for a police officer in Raleigh is $42,300. In San Diego county that puts you below the poverty line.

You may believe that there is "very little education requirements". But ask around, it's almost impossible to make it deep into the hiring process without a 4-year degree. Especially in California.
 
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I think @Sigaba is onto something, but like @Ranger Psych said, you have to change the laws. I think that point is missing from the debate: reform is law, not money, driven.

There is absolutely nothing simple about the changes required in America, but people distill their talking points into binary, easy solutions. Nah, son, society doesn't work that way and the longer we cling to that idea the worse this becomes.

Defund the police to improve society is like saying we should go to the moon. Great concepts, but incredibly complex to pull off.
 

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