National Protest and 'disband the cops' discussion (please review page 1)

Devildoc said:
I just read his autopsy (yeah, I'm bored). No medical evidence that the neck thing caused death; in fact, there is no medical evidence that the cop's actions caused the death. There are a lot of different drugs on board. To be fair, a lot of notes about bruising/contusions/abrasions on his shoulders and torso; a few minor on his cheeks and nose.

Any potential jurors in the SPAM area have already made up their minds, so it's not going to matter.

For your viewing pleasure:

Autopsy 2020-3700 Floyd | Coronary Circulation | Tetrahydrocannabinol
Click to expand...
You and I are on the same wavelength today. I just posted something very similar.
 
Devildoc said:
I just read his autopsy (yeah, I'm bored). No medical evidence that the neck thing caused death; in fact, there is no medical evidence that the cop's actions caused the death. There are a lot of different drugs on board. To be fair, a lot of notes about bruising/contusions/abrasions on his shoulders and torso; a few minor on his cheeks and nose.

Any potential jurors in the SPAM area have already made up their minds, so it's not going to matter.

For your viewing pleasure:

Autopsy 2020-3700 Floyd | Coronary Circulation | Tetrahydrocannabinol
Click to expand...

This is one of those super tough situations. Floyd clearly was no angel, the guy had lots of reasons to not like him. Chauvin probably had a justified case for all of his actions until somewhere during the 8-minutes of kneeling. At some point, whether the guy (Floyd) can breathe/talk/move, Chauvin should have had enough sense to attempt to get him back in the car. I have a hard time believing he didn't feel a physical difference from Floyd from when he was alive to when he passed. I fully support our cops and the job they do, but all Americans deserve their day in court, and Floyd was not given his. We have cops to enforce laws and ask them to do heroic actions day in and day out, but we don't ask/want them to judge and implement punishments.
 
All of that said, I don't think this was racially motivated. I also don't think it is a result of a racist system. I think we have a culture problem that creates resentment towards our brothers in blue and until that is fixed, we are always going to have hostile criminals who cops need to take actions against. When situations are continually escalated by aggressive citizens, these situations will continue to happen. A little respect for the law and those that serve it would go a long way in minimizing these incidents.
 
NikNifSik said:
This is one of those super tough situations. Floyd clearly was no angel, the guy had lots of reasons to not like him. Chauvin probably had a justified case for all of his actions until somewhere during the 8-minutes of kneeling. At some point, whether the guy (Floyd) can breathe/talk/move, Chauvin should have had enough sense to attempt to get him back in the car. I have a hard time believing he didn't feel a physical difference from Floyd from when he was alive to when he passed. I fully support our cops and the job they do, but all Americans deserve their day in court, and Floyd was not given his. We have cops to enforce laws and ask them to do heroic actions day in and day out, but we don't ask/want them to judge and implement punishments.
Click to expand...

Totally agree, super tough. At the end of the day I don't care what Floyd's history is, just interested in the link between him, his death, and Chauvin's actions, and creating (or dispelling) a fatal sequence of events. I also agree about giving people (to include Chauvin) their day in court; however, I am afraid that people have already made up their minds.
 
Devildoc said:
Totally agree, super tough. At the end of the day I don't care what Floyd's history is, just interested in the link between him, his death, and Chauvin's actions, and creating (or dispelling) a fatal sequence of events. I also agree about giving people (to include Chauvin) their day in court; however, I am afraid that people have already made up their minds.
Click to expand...
Concur. The officers had no idea who he was or anything about his history at any point during their interaction. So, it's all noise and irrelevant to the specific situation.
 
Bypass said:
My point was supposed to be Floyd was also responsible in a way. Had he not been on fentanyl he probably wouldn't have died according to everything I've heard and what little I have read. BUT I agree having a knee on his neck didn't help. Had it been a sober individual and not someone suffering from a fentanyl overdose like you or me then we probably wouldn't have died BUT we also wouldn't have freaked out and lost our shit when the officers tried to place us under arrest. I'm not completely defending or completely accusing anyone. I'm just saying it was a bad chain of events that could have been avoided if Floyd had stayed home that day where he could have died on his own in his own home of a fentanyl overdose.
Click to expand...

Gotcha, I was misunderstanding what you were saying. My bad.
 
Bypass said:
A lot of Fentanyl in his system. Complained he couldn't breath before being placed on ground. Was an APPROVED restraining technique. Who killed who?
Click to expand...

What is a lot of fentanyl? A lot of fentanyl for you, for an opiate naive person, for a person in chronic pain, a cancer patient, an Afghan who has been smoking opium their entire adult life? All of those have different amounts that would be considered a lot...Further Floyd may have been prescribed his opiates for pain, I do not know. A serum level of 11ng seems high, but often postmortem serum levels are unreliably high due to redistribution.

“Blood or serum concentrations of fentanyl do not correlate with doses either antemortem or postmortem. Moreover, fentanyl con- centrations in postmortem peripheral blood samples can be con- siderably higher than concentrations of in vivo serum samples and therefore could not be compared. Due to the pharmacokin- etics of fentanyl and its high partitioning into peripheral tissues and adipose tissue, considerable postmortem redistribution can occur.”

https://watermark.silverchair.com/b...DjyMQCWIno34SerpHMqNG8hYGYvby_IyFF_v6PyEI1NCw


Just pointing out that the amount in the system is different from a therapeutic amount. People walk around, drive, and lead normal lives while taking opiates of all kinds of strengths.

Bypass said:
. I'm just saying it was a bad chain of events that could have been avoided if Floyd had stayed home that day where he could have died on his own in his own home of a fentanyl overdose.
Click to expand...

Do you think he died of a fentanyl overdose? This has zero indications of that. He was up and moving around. I have treated a lot of overdose patients, and this doesn’t look like any of them I have ever seen. I didn’t see anything in the autopsy about needle marks, so he may have been using it in another way, but if it was an overdose he would never have needed to be restrained, as he would have been lethargic, to the point of being concerning.
 
@Dvr55119 , according to the autopsy, he also was positive for sickle cell trait, though I don't know if he had active disease. As you and I well know, those guys take enough narcotic to kill most people.

According to the report the man was a walking pharmacy for illicit substances, though being an habitual user, you know he had a very high tolerance.
 
Devildoc said:
@Dvr55119 , according to the autopsy, he also was positive for sickle cell trait, though I don't know if he had active disease. As you and I well know, those guys take enough narcotic to kill most people.

According to the report the man was a walking pharmacy for illicit substances, though being an habitual user, you know he had a very high tolerance.
Click to expand...

I saw that about sickle cell. I almost included it, but didn’t know if he had had a crisis.
 
Dvr55119 said:
What is a lot of fentanyl? A lot of fentanyl for you, for an opiate naive person, for a person in chronic pain, a cancer patient, an Afghan who has been smoking opium their entire adult life? All of those have different amounts that would be considered a lot...Further Floyd may have been prescribed his opiates for pain, I do not know. A serum level of 11ng seems high, but often postmortem serum levels are unreliably high due to redistribution.

“Blood or serum concentrations of fentanyl do not correlate with doses either antemortem or postmortem. Moreover, fentanyl con- centrations in postmortem peripheral blood samples can be con- siderably higher than concentrations of in vivo serum samples and therefore could not be compared. Due to the pharmacokin- etics of fentanyl and its high partitioning into peripheral tissues and adipose tissue, considerable postmortem redistribution can occur.”

https://watermark.silverchair.com/b...DjyMQCWIno34SerpHMqNG8hYGYvby_IyFF_v6PyEI1NCw


Just pointing out that the amount in the system is different from a therapeutic amount. People walk around, drive, and lead normal lives while taking opiates of all kinds of strengths.



Do you think he died of a fentanyl overdose? This has zero indications of that. He was up and moving around. I have treated a lot of overdose patients, and this doesn’t look like any of them I have ever seen. I didn’t see anything in the autopsy about needle marks, so he may have been using it in another way, but if it was an overdose he would never have needed to be restrained, as he would have been lethargic, to the point of being concerning.
Click to expand...
I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV but take it with a grain of salt that is simply what I heard.
 
Dvr55119 said:
Post
Click to expand...

Are we also still prescribing Methamphetamines to patients?

Here's the Full Panel from the link @Devildoc posted. I don't get why you're being so combative. (Or maybe that's my bias, since that's been your language choice, or we're all just fucking tired)

1. Fentanyl 11ng/ml
2. Norfentanyl 5.6ng/ml
3. 4-ANP 0.65ng/ml
4. Methamphetime 19ng/ml
5. 11-Hydroxy Delta-9 THC 1.2 ng/ml; Delta-9 Carboxy THC 42ng/ml; Delta-9 THC 2.9 ng/ml
6. Cotinine Positive
7. Caffeine Positive

So in your professional opinion, especially after seeing the body cam footage would you say he was sober or high as a stunt kite?

Gonna need to a scrip for all of that.
 
@ThunderHorse , I'm not going to speak for @Dvr55119 , but you can get prescriptions for methamphetamines.

I don't know if he was as high as a kite, or is opioid naive given his medical history but I think it's absolutely rational to think that having all of that on board contributed to a state of mind such as to resist and be combative.

Regarding sickle cell, if he actually had the disease and not just carrying the trait, it's not unheard of that these people get six, eight milligrams of Dilaudid and 250 micrograms of fentanyl in one sitting which budges their pain from a 10 to a 7. In non-medical speak, with you and I, we'd go into respiratory arrest with that.

Personally, I absolutely think it's a contributing factor to his combativeness.
 
On initial contact with the officers, Floyd's behavior can pretty easily be described as paranoid and erratic. Maybe that'd his personality, I don't know, but the officers recognized this as well and immediately began to question if he was on something - PCP or other. They mention his eyes shaking as they try to determine the issue.

At one point, one of the officers also wondered aloud about "excited delirium". That is a controversial subject. It's not a recognized medical condition but some believe it to be true. I don't know much about it, maybe some of you here are familiar with it? I 'd like to know more about it because I do find it strange that he complained about breathing and his chest prior to any restraint on the ground. Even stranger when everyone has grasped onto the breathing comment, when asphyxiation was not the cause of death.
 

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