New pipeline for TACP

[Arf]

Make them swim

 

[AWP]

Water Confidence may very well mean a lot outside of the pool but at the end of the day can hold up the production rate of TACPs which will hurt big army. You make a good point of the purpose of teaching water con for surviving in life or death situations but that shouldn’t involve weeks of training involving underwater, 500s, etcs instead such should involve gear-dismounts in water and just being able to survive in water rather than becoming Micheal Phillips.

Again, you're basing your opinions on what military experience?

 

[ilikeairplanes12]

I have none whatsoever, but I am basing my opinions off of numbers, stats and the well established needs of the army which the over abundance of water con disrupts.

 

[DA SWO]

Water Confidence may very well mean a lot outside of the pool but at the end of the day can hold up the production rate of TACPs which will hurt big army. You make a good point of the purpose of teaching water con for surviving in life or death situations but that shouldn’t involve weeks of training involving underwater, 500s, etcs instead such should involve gear-dismounts in water and just being able to survive in water rather than becoming Micheal Phillips.

You don't know what you don't know.
Where does it say swim failures get washed out of prep/TACP Pipeline?
Fuck the Army, the AF provides JTAC's and has done so for decades. The process is constantly refined and changed as technology changes or as the operating environment changes.
Swimming improves overall cardio levels and is generally low impact.
Your gonna be "that guy" in RASP who gets shitty peer reviews and doesn't know why.

 

[Arf]

over abundance of water con disrupts.

Have you tried shaving your back to get through your water troubles? Swimming with a sweater on is like swimming with a parachute. That was my secret to success in SWCC school.

 

[AWP]

I have none whatsoever, but I am basing my opinions off of numbers, stats and the well established needs of the army which the over abundance of water con disrupts.

You are wrong about twenty ways from Sunday. Stop posting the "I heards" and opinions of others. This isn't a request.

For the rest of the members, I say again because some of you "don't read so gooder", FOR THE REST OF THE MEMBERS, we're done with any dogpile in this thread. Back to the TACP Pipeline discussion.

 

[jsamhake]

Didn't they just release a new Pipe line and move their school to TX back in Oct?

 

[AlphaVictor]

Didn't they just release a new Pipe line and move their school to TX back in Oct?

Their school has been in Texas since 2015. What you are referring to is 6th CTS standing up a new Fornal Training Unit, which from my understanding is active duty's version of ANG TACP ICST now built into the pipeline following the TACP apprentice course.

 

[DA SWO]

Their school has been in Texas since 2015. What you are referring to is 6th CTS standing up a new Fornal Training Unit, which from my understanding is active duty's version of ANG TACP ICST now built into the pipeline following the TACP apprentice course.

ANG going to transition to the AD course? or just stay the course?

 

[AlphaVictor]

ANG going to transition to the AD course? or just stay the course?

I don't have a for sure answer for you, but from what I have heard the plan is to stay the course for now. I will ask around next drill to see if anyone knows more.

 

[AlphaVictor]

ANG going to transition to the AD course? or just stay the course?

As it was explained to me, the plan is when the AD FTU course finally stands up, ANG will send their guys through it and do away with ANG ICST. After completion of FTU, TACPs will proceed on to JTACQC and return to their units ready for their initial JTAC evaluation. We are at least a year out from this happening, however.

 

[Arf]

What is the difference between CCT and TACP? I see that CCT can set up airfields and direct traffic, but it looks like they can do everything a TACP can do also?

 

[AWP]

What is the difference between CCT and TACP? I see that CCT can set up airfields and direct traffic, but it looks like they can do everything a TACP can do also?

Not all CCT's are JTAC's, TACP's are designed to support Army maneuver elements, vast differences in training and supported mission sets, etc.

As an outsider and staff member here who often sees the comparison question, the killer for everyone is the belief that every CCT is a JTAC. Right behind that is "every TACP is a JTAC" or something similar. The JTAC qualification vice the jobs (CCT/ TACP) really messes with some brains.

 

[Arf]

Right behind that is "every TACP is a JTAC" or something similar.

To clarify, is every TACP a JTAC?

If the answer question above is yes, what is the difference between a TACP and a Operator with a JTAC Qual?

 

[Johca]

Operator??? SOF-JTACs are more special than conventional JTACs?

A recent December 2019 Air Force Association article that may be of interest, The ups and downs of Close Air Support

Reference AFECD, 31 October 2019, 1Z3X1-Tactical Air Control Party (TACP):

3.5.3. For award and retention of AFSC 1Z351/71/91/00:
3.5.3.1. Certification as a JTAC according to AFI 13-112, Volume 1, Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) Training Program, and AFMAN 13-112 Volume 2, Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) Standardization/Evaluation Program.
3.5.3.2. Must not be permanently decertified as a JTAC IAW AFMAN 13-112, Volume 2.

The intent for the past three decades is to make JTAC also a requirement for award and retention of AFSC 1Z331 (3-skill level).

Reference:
JCAS AP MOA 2004-01, Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) (Ground), 1 Sept 2010

This Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) also provides for the participation of Partner Nations in order to standardize JTAC certification and qualification requirements with Allied military forces.

Under United States domestic law, training and equipping JTACs is a Title 10 responsibility of each Service component within the Department of Defense. In fulfillment of its Title 10 responsibility to train and equip the forces, each Service component has independently and voluntarily determined that it is in their Service's best interests to meet or exceed the minimum standards for JTAC training and certification identified in this MOA.

Background: JTACs are the forward element of the theater air-ground system (TAGS) and must be organized, trained, and equipped to operate within that infrastructure. A JTAC is defined as, “A certified/qualified Service member who, from a forward position, directs the action of combat aircraft engaged in close air support and other air operations.” (JP 1-02, DOD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms) Contents of this MOA – specifically the Joint Mission Task List (JMTL) and training standards are based on Joint Publication (JP) 3-09.3, CAS. A qualified JTAC will be recognized across DOD and participating nations as capable and authorized to perform terminal attack control.

The following list may have changed since 2010. The Air Combat Command (ACC) Joint Terminal Attack Controller Qualification Course (JTACQC) is supposedly the required qual course for all TACP obtaining 5-skill level, but there is a Special Operations qual course too.

5.2.2.1. Accredited JTAC Schoolhouses. The following organizations/training processes are currently recognized by the JFS ESC as being in compliance with JTAC MOA requirements:

– Expeditionary Warfare Training Group (EWTG) Atlantic/Pacific (LANT/PAC) Tactical Air Control Party Course (TACP).
– Air Combat Command (ACC) Joint Terminal Attack Controller Qualification Course (JTACQC).
– Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC) Joint Terminal Attack Controller Course (JTACC).
– Special Operations Terminal Attack Controller Course (SOTACC).
– U.S. Air Forces Europe (USAFE) Air Ground Operations School (AGOS) JTACQC.
– Australian Defense Force (ADF) 4 Squadron Joint Terminal Attack Controller Course (JTACC).
– Canadian Armed Forces (CF) Forward Air Controller Course (FACC).
– Netherlands Air Ground Operations School (AGOS).
– Norwegian Air Ground Operations Section (AGOS).
– Swedish Forward Air Controller (FAC) Basis Course.
– United Kingdom (UK) Joint Forward Air Control Training and Standards Unit (JFACTSU).

 

[DA SWO]

To clarify, is every TACP a JTAC?

If the answer question above is yes, what is the difference between a TACP and a Operator with a JTAC Qual?

TACP-JTAC and a CCT-JTAC have the same quarterly JTAC requirements.
It's kind of like the difference between SWCC and the Riverene folks, both drive small boats, but the other skill sets make for a completely different NEC.
FWIW Their is a small set of TACP assigned to AFSOC as SOF-TACP.

 

[AWP]

TACP-JTAC and a CCT-JTAC have the same quarterly JTAC requirements.
It's kind of like the difference between SWCC and the Riverene folks, both drive small boats, but the other skill sets make for a completely different NEC.
FWIW Their is a small set of TACP assigned to AFSOC as SOF-TACP.

This is probably the best answer out there.

 

[AlphaVictor]

What is the difference between CCT and TACP? I see that CCT can set up airfields and direct traffic, but it looks like they can do everything a TACP can do also?

CCT primarily does the pathfinder mission. Some of them are either JTAC or SOTAC qualified, but it is a secondary duty to the CCTs primary mission. CCTs are broken up into provisions strike and global access teams. The precision strike teams are made up of JTAC qualified CCTs who primarily attach to Army SF ODA and direct close air support for them. This is a mission that should be carried out by SOF TACP, however manning shortages have hindered this from being the case. The global access team performs pathfinder duties such as airfield survey to allow for aircraft to operate and land in the previously denied area. All CCTs are under AFSOC, and thus, under SOCOM, so it is easier for them to get attached to other SOF units who are also under SOCOM.

TACPs, on the other hand, are mostly under ACC in the Air Force. This means they belong to the conventional flying air force, and their job is to support the conventional Army combat maneuver units. The entire job of the TACP is close air support. They serve as the subject matter experts on close air support in the US military (and even NATO). There is much more to it than just getting on a radio and calling in coordinates, and so the TACP fully integrates with an aligned Army unit, planning, coordinating, and executing all aspects of air power into the ground scheme of maneuver. You may be calling in bombs under fire, or advising and briefing Army battle staff during the planning phase. These are all parts of the job. Some TACPs have gone through an additional selection and serve as SOF TACPs, assigned to the various Special Tactics Squadrons, where their mission is to provide JTAC support for the 75th Ranger Regiment, SF ODA, or whatever SOF element requires them.

As to the question of TACP or JTAC:
TACP is a career field, JTAC is a qualification that allows you to provide terminal control of air to ground munitions. Previously, a TACP may not ever become a JTAC, and would remain a ROMAD. Those days are gone. TACPs are expected to become a qualified JTAC within a specific amount of time (I believe 18 months from graduation date?) Or they go away. You are not deployable as a non JTAC qualified TACP.

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

 

[Arf]

@AlphaVictor

This was the most beneficial to me, thank you. I have the ability to go to JTAC school as SWCC, and I was wondering how a TACPs job would different than mine would be, other than my obvious SWCC specific stuff. You all pretty much answered my questions.

One more question in relation to what you touched on. Not all TACPs are considered Special Operators?

Edit: I reread some of this thread and it makes it pretty clear that the answer is no, not all TACPs are SOF. I think it’s interesting that they are listed on the AFSOC recruiting page though.

 

[DA SWO]

CCT primarily does the pathfinder mission. Some of them are either JTAC or SOTAC qualified, but it is a secondary duty to the CCTs primary mission. CCTs are broken up into provisions strike and global access teams. The precision strike teams are made up of JTAC qualified CCTs who primarily attach to Army SF ODA and direct close air support for them. This is a mission that should be carried out by SOF TACP, however manning shortages have hindered this from being the case. The global access team performs pathfinder duties such as airfield survey to allow for aircraft to operate and land in the previously denied area. All CCTs are under AFSOC, and thus, under SOCOM, so it is easier for them to get attached to other SOF units who are also under SOCOM.

TACPs, on the other hand, are mostly under ACC in the Air Force. This means they belong to the conventional flying air force, and their job is to support the conventional Army combat maneuver units. The entire job of the TACP is close air support. They serve as the subject matter experts on close air support in the US military (and even NATO). There is much more to it than just getting on a radio and calling in coordinates, and so the TACP fully integrates with an aligned Army unit, planning, coordinating, and executing all aspects of air power into the ground scheme of maneuver. You may be calling in bombs under fire, or advising and briefing Army battle staff during the planning phase. These are all parts of the job. Some TACPs have gone through an additional selection and serve as SOF TACPs, assigned to the various Special Tactics Squadrons, where their mission is to provide JTAC support for the 75th Ranger Regiment, SF ODA, or whatever SOF element requires them.

As to the question of TACP or JTAC:
TACP is a career field, JTAC is a qualification that allows you to provide terminal control of air to ground munitions. Previously, a TACP may not ever become a JTAC, and would remain a ROMAD. Those days are gone. TACPs are expected to become a qualified JTAC within a specific amount of time (I believe 18 months from graduation date?) Or they go away. You are not deployable as a non JTAC qualified TACP.

I hope that clears up some of the confusion.

ACC drug their feet when creating SOF-TACP's.
CCT jumped in, sadly, when the better solution was increasing the number of TACP's assigned to SF.