Note the day people; I have now been officially wrong once. :)
Seems crazy to me. The Corps would never do that; there's always a need for more cooks or field wiremen...
PJ washouts being discharged???
- Thread starter Hamijc5
- Start date
Note the day people; I have now been officially wrong once. :)
Seems crazy to me. The Corps would never do that; there's always a need for more cooks or field wiremen...
as crazy as it sounds you have to look at it this way. indoc usually starts with around 100-120 guys each class. only 10-15% of these guys graduate...sometimes less. with around 7 classes a year thats around 650-750 guys that have to be reclassified...and that number is for pararescue only. now add the washouts at CCT, EOD and SERE and thats a lot of guys. like i said the last number i heard was around 4000 airman to many in the air force. i dont whole heartedly agree with it but to the higher ups its a numbers game and i guess that was the easiest number that popped out to them on paper i suppose.
Correct me if I am wrong txpj007, but this also started a couple years ago on the O side of Special Tactics, when it was indicated that they were needing to reduce force size. If an individual tried to go from one AFSC into CRO or STO, and failed they were shown the door to the civilian world. I only read about it and thought to myself, well that's incentive to make sure that's what you REALLY wanted to do before trying out for a slot and also I guess it kept Big Blue from offering incentives for early outs.
Things could have changed in 2 years- but an Airman with a guaranteed contract is given what equals a review board upon failing out of Indoc- at which time a recommendation is given for crosstraining or reclass. If you dont get the nod- then yea, you are "out". Very seldom - I.E. my indoc team had 60 quitters on it, the one before mine had 70-ish and NONE of them were discharged- do you get "shown the door" for simply failing. I smell some other part of the story, somewhere.
Bottom line- quitting = bad and you should NOT do it.
Bottom line- quitting = bad and you should NOT do it.
its still the same "review board" type setting for airmen that are eliminated for standards. the only difference is before you were reclassed no questions asked. the new air force policy is now discharge...how long this will last is yet to be determined. this new directive just came down like 3 weeks ago.
Hamijc5
Unverified
Well Reguardless of policy, Pararescue is something I have wanted to do for a LONG time and Ive been training for over a year to be successful and I will do whatever it takes to pass. They will have to kill me to get me out and that will be my mentality. Ive got 7 weeks to go; Ive sold everything I own,dropped a job and now have nothing,but eat,sleep and workout and thats all I care about for the next 7 weeks. I know its not a walk in the park, I know I will have to pull everything out of myself at times to get a task achieved, and with that said I want to be a PJ,so someone can go home and give there wife and kids kiss at the end of the day at whatever price it cost me. So whatever the Air force wants to do with me when I PASS indoc from pure heart and determination, then we'll talk! Thank for the input guys and sorry for rambeling, but I just dont understand people that enter with the mindset it will be tough and oh I can handle it, Ive ran a mile or two for a few weeks. My buddy in indoc now said they went to the pool the first week and while standing in line the kid behind him said "OMG we have to swim??" These are the people that are being discharged and have no right even starting INDOC. If anyone has any constructive criticizim,Im am a man and will accept it please be open minded. Feel free to email me any advise and I will take it with me everywhere I go.
Just another J-I'm using it as motivation, it was just a shocker to me hearing that if something happened we would be out, no questions asked. Your damn right, that we have to have a no quit attitude and to get this shit out of our heads, because it is do or die for me, literally. As far as I'm concerned, If I quit, someone dies, and I don't want that kind of blood on my hands. That is how I get through my own training and that is how I will get through my future training.
Thanks for all the advice and comments guys
Thanks for all the advice and comments guys
Discharging after Indoc
:)I was in BALLZ 004 - 10 that is still continuing right now. I couldnt keep up with the intensity of the training as they ramped it up. They ramp it up very quickly. No crawl, walk, run phase, its more like jog, sprint, and then balls out.
I made it to the 4th week, failed some evals on buddy breathing and 25m mask and snorkle recc, but the Cadre dont wash you out just for that. So from my experience it really depends on the Cadre, if they see that you got room for improvement they will work with you, no more like work you until you satisfy those requirements.
If they see that on a regular training day you can pass the buddy breathing and snorkle reccs etc but not on the test day, they do take that into consideration. I did fine on the same exercises on regular days. In my case I put out like hell every day I was there and they didnt wash me out because I failed a few evals. The stress of a test day is high and they understand that.
But they also know that in one way or another if you dont have the stamina to keep up with the training or desire to keep going, they know you will wash yourself out. I think when passing evals really counts is in the final eval. If you dont pass an eval, yes you will wash out and most likely get set back to the next pre-team. At that point you do have the choice to reclass and move on to another afsc Spec Ops or regular, or you can get on the next BALLZ team.
One of my buddies from my bmt flight is still in there. He does fine on every eval except treading water. Cant keep his head above water and hasnt passed a treading eval since week 2, but he gives everything he's got every single day and never scurves. Cadre notice that and take that into consideration.
I finished off one of the toughest days of my life, and it was a standard training day. We finished an entire day of interval training at the track, G&Gs, finning, more G&Gs, weights, cals and more cals, a smoke session at the school house then a smoke session at the pool and came down to water con. Man I was passing out on underwaters with charged masks and booties on with all of our gear at the bottom of the pool and all around us with the sirens goin off and all that stuff. It sucked. But that was just an easy day. My problem is I was smoked. I made the decision that night that my body wouldnt allow me to push on through the training any further, waking up at 0330 everyday I was just fricking smoked while the other guys on team were fine. So I met my limit and showed up in my blues the next day. At least I can say I made it past the 80% attrition rate though. We started off with 114 cones. There are 23 cones left on team. I was # 27 or 28 when I SIEd.They are going into week 5, HELL WEEK along with ETD.
Im a reservist so I was sent to a guard/reserve liaison and she did offer me the option to seperate from the AF. She said alot of PJ washouts to choose to do this since the AF is downsizing now. However Ive yet to hear of a cone gettng discharged just from falling out of Indoc. I think he would have to do some incredibly stupid things to get a discharge straight from Indoc. Most men who get out choose another SpecOps afsc mainly TACP or SERE since there is little or no water con. However if they do fail out of another afsc it is true that you will get discharged. I think that goes for any career field.
Im just waiting for my reclass now, discharging myself out of the AF wouldnt look too good in the civ world.
:)I was in BALLZ 004 - 10 that is still continuing right now. I couldnt keep up with the intensity of the training as they ramped it up. They ramp it up very quickly. No crawl, walk, run phase, its more like jog, sprint, and then balls out.
I made it to the 4th week, failed some evals on buddy breathing and 25m mask and snorkle recc, but the Cadre dont wash you out just for that. So from my experience it really depends on the Cadre, if they see that you got room for improvement they will work with you, no more like work you until you satisfy those requirements.
If they see that on a regular training day you can pass the buddy breathing and snorkle reccs etc but not on the test day, they do take that into consideration. I did fine on the same exercises on regular days. In my case I put out like hell every day I was there and they didnt wash me out because I failed a few evals. The stress of a test day is high and they understand that.
But they also know that in one way or another if you dont have the stamina to keep up with the training or desire to keep going, they know you will wash yourself out. I think when passing evals really counts is in the final eval. If you dont pass an eval, yes you will wash out and most likely get set back to the next pre-team. At that point you do have the choice to reclass and move on to another afsc Spec Ops or regular, or you can get on the next BALLZ team.
One of my buddies from my bmt flight is still in there. He does fine on every eval except treading water. Cant keep his head above water and hasnt passed a treading eval since week 2, but he gives everything he's got every single day and never scurves. Cadre notice that and take that into consideration.
I finished off one of the toughest days of my life, and it was a standard training day. We finished an entire day of interval training at the track, G&Gs, finning, more G&Gs, weights, cals and more cals, a smoke session at the school house then a smoke session at the pool and came down to water con. Man I was passing out on underwaters with charged masks and booties on with all of our gear at the bottom of the pool and all around us with the sirens goin off and all that stuff. It sucked. But that was just an easy day. My problem is I was smoked. I made the decision that night that my body wouldnt allow me to push on through the training any further, waking up at 0330 everyday I was just fricking smoked while the other guys on team were fine. So I met my limit and showed up in my blues the next day. At least I can say I made it past the 80% attrition rate though. We started off with 114 cones. There are 23 cones left on team. I was # 27 or 28 when I SIEd.They are going into week 5, HELL WEEK along with ETD.
Im a reservist so I was sent to a guard/reserve liaison and she did offer me the option to seperate from the AF. She said alot of PJ washouts to choose to do this since the AF is downsizing now. However Ive yet to hear of a cone gettng discharged just from falling out of Indoc. I think he would have to do some incredibly stupid things to get a discharge straight from Indoc. Most men who get out choose another SpecOps afsc mainly TACP or SERE since there is little or no water con. However if they do fail out of another afsc it is true that you will get discharged. I think that goes for any career field.
Im just waiting for my reclass now, discharging myself out of the AF wouldnt look too good in the civ world.
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08steeda
Guest
I had the same issue with treading water. I would sink like a stone. So they sent me to AF S.E.R.E. Indoc to become an Instructor. But that was in the mid 80's. It would be a waste to send them back to being a civi because of one evolution.
THIS..........
oh, you know you have to go back.....this will eat at you for the rest of your life if you don't.....That 'I was thiiiiis close' thingie??
I applaud you for your effort but would rather congratulate you for your accomplishment. THAT is the difference.
You were 'attritted', punto.
Guess what quitters that justify quitting are at the end of the day? :cool:
This is the exact reason SMU's have selection processes. No percentage should justify the fact that you didn't make the grade. I'm not calling you out, I'm saying a soldier who goes back and tries again more often than not makes it through the training because the cadre realize the heart of the 'returnee'.
Go back and do it again.
---update---
so the air forces intent to remove washouts still stands. it took a while to get all the parts in place but as it stands all quitters will be administratively discharged. the reason for this is that all students entering into the PJ careerfield are VOLUNTEERS. if a student quits beyond a certain point in training he can be recommended to go to another careerfield however if it doesnt meet the needs of the air force he will be administratively discharged. however if they show signs of malingering they will not be afforded that opportunity. the air force as a whole is overmanned and some students have used the route of coming into pararescue as a means to get there foot in the door with the intent of quitting solely to get reclassed into another job.
this policy applies for CCT, TACP and EOD as well...
so the air forces intent to remove washouts still stands. it took a while to get all the parts in place but as it stands all quitters will be administratively discharged. the reason for this is that all students entering into the PJ careerfield are VOLUNTEERS. if a student quits beyond a certain point in training he can be recommended to go to another careerfield however if it doesnt meet the needs of the air force he will be administratively discharged. however if they show signs of malingering they will not be afforded that opportunity. the air force as a whole is overmanned and some students have used the route of coming into pararescue as a means to get there foot in the door with the intent of quitting solely to get reclassed into another job.
this policy applies for CCT, TACP and EOD as well...
If you quit, you are a quitter.
If you get injured, and can heal then continue, but you don't - you are a quitter.
If you can't hack it - you are a nonselect.
If you get recycled - take it - it's a gift from the committee and a vote of confidence that you just need to dig a little deeper.
To all of the candidates for a ll SOF units... if you quit, you are at the mercy of whichever service you joined.
If you get injured, and can heal then continue, but you don't - you are a quitter.
If you can't hack it - you are a nonselect.
If you get recycled - take it - it's a gift from the committee and a vote of confidence that you just need to dig a little deeper.
To all of the candidates for a ll SOF units... if you quit, you are at the mercy of whichever service you joined.
This isn't entirely new. A neighbor of mine in Monterey about five years ago, an AF E2, was dropped from Japanese for academic reasons. Instead of putting him into an "easier" language or re-classing him to another MOS, the AF discharged him. He was a squared away kid from what I saw, and you don't get to go to DLI if you're a dummy. Didn't make sense to me, but that's prolly why I wasn't in the Air Force.
No VA bennies until after 181 consecutive days of Title 10 (Active Duty) time. That's why I am semi-happy they lefy my son with his BMT Flight.
JimMCpog
Unverified
rockclimber
Unverified
Would someone who had been discharged from the Air Force subsequently have a harder time joining another service?
