Retention and Recruitment Crisis

[AWP]

My wife went to Recruit Training in '93 and everyone there had a contracted rate. When they in-processed they were told "We have enough of X, so pick a rate from this list or go undesignated."

A good friend went nuke in 91 or so and when he flunked out he become undesignated. I thought they had a feeder rate(s) like Machinist Mate, Electronic Tech, etc.?

I don't know if that kind of stuff still happens or not.

 

[Box]

Not sure if you're serious or... just being Box

THAT has to be the single most flattering post anyone has ever posted about me.
I tip my hat to you.





...but seriously - I woulda' thought 'undesignated seaman' was something they kept in bottles in the supply room of a fertility clinic.

 

[Devildoc]

My wife went to Recruit Training in '93 and everyone there had a contracted rate. When they in-processed they were told "We have enough of X, so pick a rate from this list or go undesignated."

A good friend went nuke in 91 or so and when he flunked out he become undesignated. I thought they had a feeder rate(s) like Machinist Mate, Electronic Tech, etc.?

I don't know if that kind of stuff still happens or not.

Yeah, still happens. There are nuclear-specific A schools that feed the nuke school, usually you get assigned to the non-nuclear version of that rate. If you fail in rate school, then you could get tossed as an undesignated. I had a friend from HS who failed in EM school prior to nuke, they gave him a list of rates, redesignated GM, did his time, got out.

 

[Marauder06]

...but seriously - I woulda' thought 'undesignated seaman' was something they kept in bottles in the supply room of a fertility clinic.

More like the results of a rape kit.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Apparently 4th ID has money for EDRE's and the CG wants to have a lot of them. Well as long as he's paying the spousal maintenance that's fine.

Not sure if you're serious or... just being Box, undesignated seaman joins under a contract with no specific NEC (i.e., MOS)/rate (job). Often assigned to ship's company as an able bodied seaman, chip paint, deck hand, etc. They then can be a 'striker', or 'strike' a rate, so see a job they like, do OJT, then go to that school and get the NEC and rate.

I can't imagine a worse fate. Imagine joining the army with no specified job or MOS.

This was like 20 years ago back when the Navy was transitioning SEALs to being a true rate. But I was at a recruiting station and a bunch of those dudes with SEAL contracts went in on undesignated contracts. I think the only guy I knew that had a rate was a guy who went DC.

Not sure how it works now because I went Army. But my assumption is a BUD/S washout is undesignated when he goes back to the fleet, maybe they get a chance to pick from available slots for an 'A' School right after.

 

[AWP]

Not sure how it works now because I went Army. But my assumption is a BUD/S washout is undesignated when he goes back to the fleet, maybe they get a chance to pick from available slots for an 'A' School right after.

I've seen a few interviews where the rare candidate has a chance to go SWCC or diver, but I can see either the list or undesignated routes being taken for washouts. "Needs of the Navy" and all that.

 

[ThunderHorse]

So, randomly reading through the Alumni Mag class notes. And apparently Brevets are back? Although it's odd because the guy was in an accessions class ahead of mine and he was promoted to Brevet Major. I think, might be wrong, this would be his above zone look and not BZ or Main Zone look. Is that really the case? Because Brevets existed when awards for officers didn't. Essentially at one point medals were for enlisted and Rank I guess was for Officers. Well never mind, I should really tell people at work to kick rocks because I just answered this with a google...

https://talent.army.mil/brevet/

So then what happens if the officer ends up not being selected for promotion while serving in the Brevet assignment?

 

[Marauder06]

So, randomly reading through the Alumni Mag class notes. And apparently Brevets are back? Although it's odd because the guy was in an accessions class ahead of mine and he was promoted to Brevet Major. I think, might be wrong, this would be his above zone look and not BZ or Main Zone look. Is that really the case? Because Brevets existed when awards for officers didn't. Essentially at one point medals were for enlisted and Rank I guess was for Officers. Well never mind, I should really tell people at work to kick rocks because I just answered this with a google...

https://talent.army.mil/brevet/

So then what happens if the officer ends up not being selected for promotion while serving in the Brevet assignment?

Brevets have been back for a while. I didn't realize that they were doing it for as low as MAJ.

I see it as the Army's way of recognizing the work we're making junior officers do because we don't have enough senior leaders, but at the same time not having to pay them for it.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Brevets have been back for a while. I didn't realize that they were doing it for as low as MAJ.

I see it as the Army's way of recognizing the work we're making junior officers do because we don't have enough senior leaders, but at the same time not having to pay them for it.

Looks like there are CPT positions available for Brevet promotion. And then also you would receive pay at the temporary grade according to the link. However, I still wonder if a Brevet Promotion occurs for someone who has not been selected their first two looks, are you in need that much for this guy to serve in that position? Dunno.

Now, Frocking was a thing when I was at 1AD even though it wasn't a thing...certain S1s got super pissed...I think even the G1 did, and then the CoS frocked the G5 to LTC.

 

[Teufel]

Manpower is complicated. It is easy to quickly react to changing labor pool shortages and over correct yourself into a bigger problem than you were fixing. Right now most of the services are hurting for field grade officers. Especially O4 and O6s. There seems to be a big retention drop at around 8-12 years as young officers look to transition to the civilian sector and at 20 years when field grade officers become retirement eligible. Under the old retirement system anyway, which applies to the current generation of officers reaching retirement age. The allure of command and continued promotion is no longer as enticing as it was in the past. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I feel that growing up in the GWOT is the biggest contributing factor.

The easiest way to solve this problem is by accelerating promotions, but this causes significant second and third order effects. People need time to get to their key billets per grade, and accelerating promotions too much may deny them that opportunity. It also dilutes the quality of your field grade population. You should offer talented people the ability to promote ahead of their peers, but this should be the exception, not the rule. Brevet promotions is a good way to get around these issues. Commands will hand select talented young officers to serve in billets above their grade. This has been happening for a long time of course but it is more acute now than it ever has been. Brevet promoting these officers allows them to benefit from their increased responsibilities without having to make changes across the entire force.

 

[Teufel]

Looks like there are CPT positions available for Brevet promotion. And then also you would receive pay at the temporary grade according to the link. However, I still wonder if a Brevet Promotion occurs for someone who has not been selected their first two looks, are you in need that much for this guy to serve in that position? Dunno.

Now, Frocking was a thing when I was at 1AD even though it wasn't a thing...certain S1s got super pissed...I think even the G1 did, and then the CoS frocked the G5 to LTC.

You have to be promotable to be frocked. Brevet promotions are available for people who haven't been selected for promotion yet. Ideally you don't request a brevet promotion for someone who is ultimately not promotable. That's a command issue. I assume that most, if not all, brevet promotions go to highly talented officers who will sail through their promotion boards.

 

[ThunderHorse]

You have to be promotable to be frocked. Brevet promotions are available for people who haven't been selected for promotion yet. Ideally you don't request a brevet promotion for someone who is ultimately not promotable. That's a command issue. I assume that most, if not all, brevet promotions go to highly talented officers who will sail through their promotion boards.

Yes, understand you have to be promotable already to be frocked. As was the case of the HHT 1SG, but it pissed off the BDE S1, but the BDE CO said get it done when I was at 2/1. I just think certain people don't like doing paperwork.

 

[Devildoc]

This was like 20 years ago back when the Navy was transitioning SEALs to being a true rate. But I was at a recruiting station and a bunch of those dudes with SEAL contracts went in on undesignated contracts. I think the only guy I knew that had a rate was a guy who went DC.

Not sure how it works now because I went Army. But my assumption is a BUD/S washout is undesignated when he goes back to the fleet, maybe they get a chance to pick from available slots for an 'A' School right after.

I've seen a few interviews where the rare candidate has a chance to go SWCC or diver, but I can see either the list or undesignated routes being taken for washouts. "Needs of the Navy" and all that.

Yeah, the NSW contract (SEAL/SWCC) is 'open' in that if you wash-out you go to 'needs of the Navy.' That is some incentive to me. They might kill me, I might be a medical or performance drop, but I won't quit is I know I might be chipping paint on an AO... But I also know guys who were offered a few decent choices of A schools based on their ASVAB/GT. I know, too, that many (most? All?) SEAL drops are offered SWCC, but SWCC is not offered SEAL.

 

[Devildoc]

Manpower is complicated. It is easy to quickly react to changing labor pool shortages and over correct yourself into a bigger problem than you were fixing. Right now most of the services are hurting for field grade officers. Especially O4 and O6s. There seems to be a big retention drop at around 8-12 years as young officers look to transition to the civilian sector and at 20 years when field grade officers become retirement eligible. Under the old retirement system anyway, which applies to the current generation of officers reaching retirement age. The allure of command and continued promotion is no longer as enticing as it was in the past. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I feel that growing up in the GWOT is the biggest contributing factor.

The easiest way to solve this problem is by accelerating promotions, but this causes significant second and third order effects. People need time to get to their key billets per grade, and accelerating promotions too much may deny them that opportunity. It also dilutes the quality of your field grade population. You should offer talented people the ability to promote ahead of their peers, but this should be the exception, not the rule. Brevet promotions is a good way to get around these issues. Commands will hand select talented young officers to serve in billets above their grade. This has been happening for a long time of course but it is more acute now than it ever has been. Brevet promoting these officers allows them to benefit from their increased responsibilities without having to make changes across the entire force.

I think most of the branches have pivoted pretty well to address recruitment and retention, and the Corps is being creative. Of course the branches could do even more and they probably will as they evolve.

It seems the 10 year mark is also around the time you see a lot of NCOs getting out, which stands to reason if they are targeting retention bonuses to that group and away from recruitment bonuses.

I just saw an interview with 1 MEF LT GEN Cederholm, great interview, in it he talked some about the challenges of recruitment and retention, and about why they have to do some things differently than other branches (specifically the navy).

 

[Devildoc]

RE: brevet, I was going through my dad's Marine Corps records earlier this morning, he was an "acting sergeant" for a bit in the early 60s before he was ultimately promoted. Looking at the records this was a common practice.

 

[RackMaster]

 

[Devildoc]

Two very different looks at recruitment and retention:

The navy will be requiring aviators to remain in service to complete sea service. Which they should. Up to now, if they are at sea when their term expires, they leave the boat. Also, so many aviators are leaving 25% of department head billets are empty. Having time as a DH is mandatory for command.

Navy will force aviators to remain in service to complete sea tours

Now, the Air Force not only meets recruitment goals, but is looking to increase by 20%. That's awesome! Toward the end of the article it states connecting with Civil Air Patrol as a means to up recruitment. I was in CAP in junior high and high school and partly through college, I loved it. We had encampments and training at Bragg, Pope, went to the fly-in at Oshkosh, I did a pararescue orientation course in West Virginia. A great resource.

Air Force meets recruitment goals, eyes 20% increase in 2025

 

[DA SWO]

Two very different looks at recruitment and retention:

The navy will be requiring aviators to remain in service to complete sea service. Which they should. Up to now, if they are at sea when their term expires, they leave the boat. Also, so many aviators are leaving 25% of department head billets are empty. Having time as a DH is mandatory for command.

Navy will force aviators to remain in service to complete sea tours

Now, the Air Force not only meets recruitment goals, but is looking to increase by 20%. That's awesome! Toward the end of the article it states connecting with Civil Air Patrol as a means to up recruitment. I was in CAP in junior high and high school and partly through college, I loved it. We had encampments and training at Bragg, Pope, went to the fly-in at Oshkosh, I did a pararescue orientation course in West Virginia. A great resource.

Air Force meets recruitment goals, eyes 20% increase in 2025

CAP has always been a great lead in, myself and three friends went AF via CAP, while another joined the Army.

 

[Devildoc]

CAP has always been a great lead in, myself and three friends went AF via CAP, while another joined the Army.

I loved my time. Loved it. I still keep up with a few, and that was early/mid-80s. I was (still am) about 90 miles from Bragg/Pope, and we'd do things with squadrons between here and there. The squadrons in the per-Bragg area were filled with old timer legends, MACV-SOG guys, SF, CCT. It's how I met SF legend COL. Howard,

 

[AWP]

1) Wasn't CAP always seen as a recruitment tool in addition to (IMO) necessary function?

2) Reports are going around that SF Groups are bringing back "ghost teams" to fix manning shortfalls. This was a 90's thing to be sure. What's an SF company? 6 teams? Now you're down to 3-5 and maybe even those are partial teams?