Ukraine - Russia Conflict

[AWP]

He's willing to have conversations or let others tell their stories, from both sides. Letting people make up their opinions. Unlike 60 minutes, CNN, Fox, or any other main stream Western media organization, fabricating stories.

You don't have to listen to him. Listen to the lawyer who's fighting both Putin and Zelensky (both dictators) at the same time.

That makes him a talk show host, not a journalist.

 

[ThunderHorse]

He's willing to have conversations or let others tell their stories, from both sides. Letting people make up their opinions. Unlike 60 minutes, CNN, Fox, or any other main stream Western media organization, fabricating stories.

You don't have to listen to him. Listen to the lawyer who's fighting both Putin and Zelensky (both dictators) at the same time.

No, that is what Rogan does. Tucker is now a turd.

You guys keep calling Zelensky a dictator. No idea why. Under Ukrainian law, one Martial law is declared elections do not take place to ensure no subversion. Zelensky's main opponents who are not Russian stooges have admitted as much. Yes, we've held elections during war time. But we also threw America citizens whose only loyalty was to the US into concentration camps. Like let's stfu.

Anyways, the Ukrainian Parliament can lift martial law if it wants.

 

[AWP]

I don't care if Zelensky is the next person under Dexter's plastic wrap. Russia invaded, Russians die. Basic math.

Another basic math problem is the only one I care about and that's how much money to give them. I'm thinking they have enough and our troops need better housing and food. If Z-Money and his boys pissed that away? I hope they get a show trial in Moscow.

 

[RackMaster]

No, that is what Rogan does. Tucker is now a turd.

You guys keep calling Zelensky a dictator. No idea why. Under Ukrainian law, one Martial law is declared elections do not take place to ensure no subversion. Zelensky's main opponents who are not Russian stooges have admitted as much. Yes, we've held elections during war time. But we also threw America citizens whose only loyalty was to the US into concentration camps. Like let's stfu.

Anyways, the Ukrainian Parliament can lift martial law if it wants.

When you outlaw and jail your political opponents, eliminate the free press, only allowing the state propaganda machine to exist, when you use a state created religion to destroy the majority independent religion of your people, rounding up clergy and forcing them to fight on the front lines, stealing funds to buy up property around the world and take your wife on shopping sprees; you're a dictator. Oh I forgot about allowing an American journalist to die in prison for publishing stories criticizing Zelensky.

This isn't just elections.

 

[ThunderHorse]

When you outlaw and jail your political opponents, eliminate the free press, only allowing the state propaganda machine to exist, when you use a state created religion to destroy the majority independent religion of your people, rounding up clergy and forcing them to fight on the front lines, stealing funds to buy up property around the world and take your wife on shopping sprees; you're a dictator. Oh I forgot about allowing an American journalist to die in prison for publishing stories criticizing Zelensky.

This isn't just elections.

Got some sources to back up the claims here? I know a few of his political opponents also happened to commit a few crimes along the way, but you're gonna need to give me something.

So let's say he is a dictator for the point of the exercise. Backing him is aligned with our interests. Do you know how many dictators this and your country have backed because it's in their interest?

 

[GOTWA]

Backing him is aligned with our interests.

Sure, and how many interests do we have at the moment? I'm not big on history, but something something Rome, and too many "interests".

 

[RackMaster]

Got some sources to back up the claims here? I know a few of his political opponents also happened to commit a few crimes along the way, but you're gonna need to give me something.

So let's say he is a dictator for the point of the exercise. Backing him is aligned with our interests. Do you know how many dictators this and your country have backed because it's in their interest?

Here's just a few. If anything that we've learned about USAiD, question everything that has anything to do with Ukraine and ask why Victoria Nuland had such a hard on to start a war with Russia.

War in Ukraine – List of journalists who are victims gets longer by the day

https://www.reuters.com/article/bus...ia-assembly-violates-rights-un-idUSL8N2T01YG/

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110...-tv-outlets-and-dissolved-rival-political-par

Parliamentary question | EU-Ukraine summit: criminalisation of political activists and outlawing of opposition parties in Ukraine | E-000169/2023 | European Parliament

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...raine-talks-with-putin-impossible-2022-10-04/

The tragic end of Gonzalo Lira: A voice silenced in Ukraine

Pandora Papers Reveal Offshore Holdings of Ukrainian President and his Inner Circle

Forgot these. You can also watch Bob Amsterdam's interview with Tucker Carlson.

Ukraine Is "Criminalising Legitimate Religious Debate”: An Interview with Bob Amsterdam

Robert Amsterdam: The Wrong Enemy - Save the Ukrainian Orthodox Church

I should add this, most of those links won't show up on Google or they'll be buried deep. I used DuckDuckGo.

 

[ThunderHorse]

Sounds like the US, remember we had the FBI have a whole threat identifier for concerned parents at school boards?

I will say something though, I've long stopped trying to export my type of Freedom onto people that don't want it. Perhaps the folks in Washington could learn a thing or two from my world view.

 

[RackMaster]

We just need to accept everyone involved in this are assholes. But in the past decade, one side has thrown away all forms of diplomacy; unless it's with our real enemies. Like known terrorist groups.

 

[RackMaster]

So Zelensky is willing to step down...

This is the shit that really gets me. He's two faced and is really itching for all out war with Russia. He knows what NATO membership means and Russia won't allow it. I'm not on the potential nuclear Armageddon train, for some douchebags ego. You can rationalize it all you want, saying Russia hasn't launched with all the "red lines" crossed but we're not just dealing with Russia now. This could very well be what opens new fronts. China into Taiwan. The Korean peninsula to glow. Or Iran to flatten Israel and so on.

Nothing is stopping them from joining the EU and having a European security guarantee. We're approaching 80 years since WW2, they should be able to protect themselves.

"If (it means) peace for Ukraine, if you really need me to leave my post, I am ready," an irritated-looking Zelenskiy said when asked during a press conference whether he was ready to leave his post if it meant securing peace.

"I can exchange this for NATO (membership), if that condition is there, immediately," the president added.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...sidency-if-it-means-peace-ukraine-2025-02-23/

 

[Marauder06]

I think Zelensky is doing the things most of us would do if a bigger neighbor attacked and wrecked our country. I'm not defending anything he did or didn't do, or addressing any of the corruption allegations against him, I'm saying I empathize.

Trump was right to exclude Zelensky from the peace negotiations. You can't have a spoiler in the room if you want to have a serious discussion about a solution that's likely not going to make anyone happy. And let's be honest, at the end of the day it matters very little what Zelensky wants. "The strong do what they will, and the weak suffer what they must."

Zelensky is, IMO, setting the stage for successful implementation of whatever Russia and the US negotiate. He can frame it as it being force fed to him, and he can resign in protest or whatever and save face while saving his people from further destruction. It's super-shitty but that's how a lot of things work in the world.

 

[Jaknight]

This may not be popular, nor the moral thing to do, but it’s the smart move. Why?


Trump is, first and foremost, a businessman—not a politician. I doubt he cares much about nationalism or America’s standing in the world. No, he cares about what all businessmen care about: the bottom line. Money. And corporate people like to back the winning horse.


Ukraine cannot win this war—not without NATO entering. It’s painful to say, as I regard their fight as heroic and worthy of help. But I also know that Putin cares little for how many lives it costs him. He could lose a million men, and there would be nothing but crickets. So, bleeding him out will take what—another two years? Can Ukraine last that long?


What Trump is doing is catering to the eventual winner—courting them. But why? I believe there are two reasons:


1. Flattery Gets You the Candy


By parroting Russian talking points, Trump and his team are getting on Putin’s good side, perhaps with the goal of reducing or reshaping some of Russia’s demands—making them more tolerable for Ukraine to accept. In other words, I think the plan is to give Russia what they want overall, but frame it in a way that Ukraine might be more willing to accept.


2. Money, Money, Money


As I said, Trump is a businessman. And I’m sure the Kremlin has already started backdoor deals, allowing American (or, better yet, Trump’s and his allies’ companies) to cash in on Ukraine’s resources once the dust settles.


Why Is Ukraine Being Excluded From Talks?


Simple: according to Trump, they have no leverage. Without U.S. support, Ukraine would fall—so in Trump’s mind, why should they even be at the table? His stance is likely, “Trust me, I’m the boss. I know what I’m doing. Just let me handle this, and your security will be guaranteed.” (Wink, wink.) And sure, maybe it will be—for the four years he’s in office.

 

[Jaknight]

If I were China, seeing what Trump is doing regarding Ukraine would definitely encourage me to prepare to take Taiwan. I’d be convinced that America lacks the will to engage in or fund another war. I would use my vast intelligence and propaganda capabilities to spread disinformation throughout Western media, framing the conflict as an internal struggle among the Chinese. I’d ensure that America believes the war will be a money drain with no upsides. As long as they don’t attack American ships or personnel, I believe America won’t get involved.

 

[DA SWO]

If I were China, seeing what Trump is doing regarding Ukraine would definitely encourage me to prepare to take Taiwan. I’d be convinced that America lacks the will to engage in or fund another war. I would use my vast intelligence and propaganda capabilities to spread disinformation throughout Western media, framing the conflict as an internal struggle among the Chinese. I’d ensure that America believes the war will be a money drain with no upsides. As long as they don’t attack American ships or personnel, I believe America won’t get involved.

Trump doesn't like China.
Trump stops food exports to China.
Food riots hit China 3 to 6 months later.

 

[Marauder06]

If I were China, seeing what Trump is doing regarding Ukraine would definitely encourage me to prepare to take Taiwan. I’d be convinced that America lacks the will to engage in or fund another war. I would use my vast intelligence and propaganda capabilities to spread disinformation throughout Western media, framing the conflict as an internal struggle among the Chinese. I’d ensure that America believes the war will be a money drain with no upsides. As long as they don’t attack American ships or personnel, I believe America won’t get involved.

I think it would help if America made it very clear what our position is ref Taiwan. “Strategic ambiguity” briefs well but leaves a lot
Up to misinterpretation.

 

[RackMaster]

France was talking about sending troops to Ukraine to fight Russians not to long ago. I doubt Russia will like French "peacekeepers".

Britain and France are developing a plan to deploy up to 30,000 European peacekeepers in Ukraine if Moscow and Kyiv reach a cease-fire deal, European officials say.
But the European proposal hinges on persuading President Trump to agree to a limited U.S. military role—dubbed a “backstop” by British officials—to protect the European troops in Ukraine if they were put in danger and deter Russia from violating any cease-fire, the officials said.
An initial test of Trump’s willingness to consider U.S. security guarantees for Ukraine will come in the next few days when U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer and French President Emmanuel Macron are scheduled to hold talks with the president at the White House.
The emerging European plan wouldn’t require the U.S. to deploy its own forces in Ukraine, which the Trump administration has all but ruled out, but would seek to draw on U.S. military capabilities that European forces lack, the officials say.
The U.S., for example, might operate air-defense systems in neighboring countries that covered swaths of Ukraine while contributing other air-defense systems to the Europeans, European officials said. U.S. air power based outside Ukraine could be kept at the ready in case European troops were in danger.
Starmer is expected to raise the evolving blueprint with Trump on Thursday, European officials said, but isn’t likely to make a concrete request for American assistance yet. Macron, who will meet on Monday with Trump, the anniversary of Russia’s 2022 invasion, will outline broader allied views on the war and how to reassure Ukraine.
Without Trump’s backing, the European plan to send peacekeepers faces a difficult path, the officials said.
The National Security Council and the British Embassy in Washington declined to comment. Mike Waltz, Trump’s national security adviser, has encouraged Europeans to develop a plan for defending Ukraine but hasn’t discussed a possible U.S. military role.
“There’s been discussions from Prime Minister Starmer and President Macron about European-led security guarantees,” he said. “We certainly welcome more European assistance.” A major challenge for the Europeans may be Trump’s goal to upgrade ties with Russia and reluctance to position the U.S. military as a potential adversary to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s forces in Ukraine.
Trump has called Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky a dictator and accused Ukraine of starting the war, which began after Putin ordered a large-scale invasion. Trump backed off his claim Friday, saying “Russia attacked, but they shouldn’t have let him attack.”
U.S. officials have pressed Zelensky to sign an agreement turning over valuable mineral rights, an accord that would be of little economic benefit to Washington unless the conflict in Ukraine was ended and the country was secure.
While European nations have stepped up their military spending in recent years, the U.K., Germany and other key North Atlantic Treaty Organization members have shrunk their armed forces since the end of the Cold War and become more dependent on the U.S., just as a Trump-led Washington is pulling away from its allies.
British officials believe American involvement is critical to deter Russian attacks, encourage other European nations to also send troops and provide the multinational force with key capabilities in short supply among European militaries.
British and French troops, along with naval forces and air power, would form the backbone of a so-called reassurance force. It wouldn’t be deployed along the front line in Ukraine’s east, but rather would be tasked with protecting vital infrastructure, cities and ports, including in the Black Sea. Drones and satellites would monitor the front line to determine whether Russia was abiding by the cease-fire.
International efforts to help Ukraine field a sizable and capable military of its own would continue and the goal of the European force wouldn’t be to substitute for Kyiv’s forces.
As the British and French prepared for their visits, Polish President Andrzej Duda met with Trump on Saturday. While Poland isn’t planning to send peacekeeping troops to Ukraine, Duda is a strong backer of Ukraine and is trying to nurture dialogue between Trump and Zelensky.
Some former U.S. military officials have raised questions about the emerging European plan while stressing that any peacekeepers would need a full array of capabilities to discourage Russian aggression.
“It has to be a joint, capable force with drone, counterdrone, long-range strike and all the things that would be needed to deter Russia from violating the cease-fire,” said Ben Hodges, a retired Army lieutenant general who served as the top U.S. Army commander in Europe from 2014 to 2018.
He added: “To put a bunch of British and French troops in cities back in Central and Western Ukraine isn’t going to stop Russia from doing anything except maybe launching missiles against those particular cities.”
To assemble a robust European peacekeeping force, Europeans say they are likely to need U.S. help with air and missile defenses. Other important capabilities the U.S. might provide include logistics, intelligence and air power.
The Trump administration has been unclear as to whether it would help with such an effort.
On Feb. 12, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth told allies in Brussels that the U.S. welcomed the proposal for a peacekeeping force that wouldn’t include American troops and couldn’t operate under the NATO flag. But the next day, speaking to The Wall Street Journal in Paris, Vice President JD Vance left the option of U.S. troops deploying to Ukraine “on the table.”
Waltz signaled that Europe’s price for engaging in peace talks between Ukraine and Russia was to be Kyiv’s main security guarantor. “As I told my counterparts, ‘Come to the table with more, if you want a bigger seat at the table,’ and we’ve been asking for that for quite some time,” he said.
Starmer’s government is the main force behind the plan, officials said.
“A U.S. security guarantee is the only way to effectively deter Russia from attacking Ukraine again,” he told reporters Feb. 17.
Macron, who has long urged Europe to take on a larger defense role, remains interested in the U.K. plan but is also gathering ideas from allies, including at a meeting of European leaders in Paris last week.
“I’m not going to decide tomorrow to send troops into Ukraine. No,” he said Thursday during a social media question-and-answer event. “What we’re considering rather is to send forces to guarantee the peace once it is negotiated and signed.”

http://archive.today/ssyDp

 

[RackMaster]

Time to bring back this bad boy.

 

[ThunderHorse]

I think Zelensky is doing the things most of us would do if a bigger neighbor attacked and wrecked our country. I'm not defending anything he did or didn't do, or addressing any of the corruption allegations against him, I'm saying I empathize.

Trump was right to exclude Zelensky from the peace negotiations. You can't have a spoiler in the room if you want to have a serious discussion about a solution that's likely not going to make anyone happy. And let's be honest, at the end of the day it matters very little what Zelensky wants. "The strong do what they will, and the weak suffer what they must."

Zelensky is, IMO, setting the stage for successful implementation of whatever Russia and the US negotiate. He can frame it as it being force fed to him, and he can resign in protest or whatever and save face while saving his people from further destruction. It's super-shitty but that's how a lot of things work in the world.

I dislike this because the Ukrainian government needs to be included in this. They are the ones doing the dying. It's like how we negotiated with the Taliban without the Afghan government.

Unless we're going to put a bullet in Putin's head, we shouldn't talk. This war would end tomorrow if Germany stopped buying Russian LNG.

 

[CQB]

Some interesting points here.

 

[RackMaster]

I dislike this because the Ukrainian government needs to be included in this. They are the ones doing the dying. It's like how we negotiated with the Taliban without the Afghan government.

Unless we're going to put a bullet in Putin's head, we shouldn't talk. This war would end tomorrow if Germany stopped buying Russian LNG.

The US and Russia haven't had diplomatic ties for a long time. You have to look at these initial meetings as just that, US and Russia reconnecting. Then Ukraine can be included. But technically Zelensky would be breaking his own decree by attending talks. He made it illegal to negotiate with Russia. He also canceled his initial scheduled meeting.