Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

This was a lesson that I took to selection from the 82nd.

Life in a combat arms unit is hard, and you aren't allowed to quit. You can't tell your squad leader or platoon sergeant that you quit in the field, there is nowhere to go. When you do a 6 mile out-and-back run, you still have to make it back to the unit area- there's no truck to pick you up.

So, when I got to selection and saw dudes quitting, I couldn't fathom it, it was such an alien concept.

The real test for these women is going to occcur when they are leading troops in their actual units, whether it's in the field or in combat. Outside of schools and JRTC/NTC/JMRC, there is no instructor or OC to correct you or make you aware of your mistakes- you eat them, and everyone truly pays for them through mileage, loss of sleep, or possibly loss of life.

For the sake of their soldiers, I hope they do well.

The cynic in me wonders if we would've lost less lives if they did these changes during OIF/OEF so we could very quickly confirm how bad an idea it was, or if we'll end up losing more lives, since we're now in peacetime (outside of SOF) and women will have more time to establish themselves and succeed within the ranks, without people trying to kill them.

I firmly believe there are some badass women that could make it in combat arms, albeit with a shorter shelf life than men. With the inevitable dropping of standards for political reasons, however, women will be a net negative for the force.
 
That, and those of us that have seen first-hand how hyped CSTs were, as if they were running and gunning and mowing down legions of Taliban. The ones that were OK and got into gunfights were not doing 12 mile infils on foot before said gunfights, because most ODAs weren't doing that shit either. However, almost any SF dude has the capability to do that when asked. They were NOT validation of women in combat, but the media coverage we allowed them to get pushed that narrative, whether intentional or not.
 
Well, before GWOT, back in the Dark Ages of the Clinton era, very, very few reserve and NG personnel/units were activated, and when they were, a lot were used in different roles than they were supposed to fill (in the Navy, anyway). Of course GWOT changed all of that and the mantra became "if you haven't deployed, you will" and "not 'if' but 'when.'"

It seems on the Navy side, the powers-that-be who decide how to utilize non-AD personnel change every couple years, and with them, their pet plans.

At least in my field, the medical side of the house, it's a natural place for women in uniform to serve, and aside from the utter bitching and moaning about the austere field life of a fleet hospital (kinda like MASH, but not really; and nothing really austere about it), I have seen no issues (with women in these roles). Even when the Navy medical reserve component gets activated and members are far-flung across the globe, despite perhaps being in totally new roles with totally new responsibilities, in support capacities it seems to pan out. Female corpsmen, however, that may be attached to a Marine infantry unit in these situations? Not a chance.
Sorry, have to disagree a little.
You may not have seen a lot of Army National Guardsmen/Reservists getting mobilized but I assure you the Air Guard and Reserve had a lot of "opportunities".
Army Reserve and National Guard units mobilized and deployed to Bosnia, Kosovo, and Haiti also, 29th ID was enroute to Bosnia on 9/11 (IIRC shit happened while they were in the air).
Clinton (like Obama) kept things as low key as he could (unless he needed cover for a political decision).
 
Sorry, have to disagree a little.
You may not have seen a lot of Army National Guardsmen/Reservists getting mobilized but I assure you the Air Guard and Reserve had a lot of "opportunities".
Army Reserve and National Guard units mobilized and deployed to Bosnia, Kosovo, and Haiti also, 29th ID was enroute to Bosnia on 9/11 (IIRC shit happened while they were in the air).
Clinton (like Obama) kept things as low key as he could (unless he needed cover for a political decision).

Sure, this is an area in which my knowledge is very much skewed, and my perspective is entirely that of the Navy reserve (and its support of the Marines/Marine reserve). I fully admit I don't know what I don't know and I appreciate the history lesson.
 
As I said before, in the company grade ranks it's just not that hard to be competent.
I can't disagree with your remarks on Bn level command, because I have no way to truly understand the scope of duties and responsibilities.

But I will say this- at the Bn level, you have several leadership filters between your decisions and the end user. At the company grade, you may literally be making life or death decisions.
 
Some skills developed mostly on the civilian side which I use as a Guard officer. And these are just off the top of my head:

Public speaking
time management
resources management
planning
training concept development
group and individual motivation
counseling

These skills aren't trained and developed exclusively on the civ side, but have been much more highly developed in the civvy environment in my own case because of constant market and competition forces which are absent in the military. It ain't cutting edge skill required to maintain competence enough to stay within your military promotion track, at least until you get way up into the rarefied rank regions.

I agree with @Marauder06 that there are some aspects of military service more highly developed by working in a full time Army, though.
 
The amount of deployments is negatively affecting Infantry and SOF forces now is what I'm saying.

Second point: Invasion and occupation of the homeland.

Marauder06, you'll be receiving a PM shortly concerning your post.

A few days ago @NFB19 and I had a discussion in this thread related to a paper he wrote about women in the combat arms. I challenged him to send me a copy of the paper, and assured him I'd keep its contents, and his name, private and that I'd give him feedback on it.

The purpose of this post is to confirm that he is a man of his word and did, in fact, send the paper. Now I have go read it and give him feedback so I can live up to my end of the agreement. ;-)
 
Some skills developed mostly on the civilian side which I use as a Guard officer. And these are just off the top of my head:

Public speaking
time management
resources management
planning
training concept development
group and individual motivation
counseling

These skills aren't trained and developed exclusively on the civ side, but have been much more highly developed in the civvy environment in my own case because of constant market and competition forces which are absent in the military. It ain't cutting edge skill required to maintain competence enough to stay within your military promotion track, at least until you get way up into the rarefied rank regions.

I agree with @Marauder06 that there are some aspects of military service more highly developed by working in a full time Army, though.


I don't manage. I command. There is an art to fighting a battalion and I learned that as a battalion operations officer.
 
I respectfully disagree.

It's about damn time the Army did this. Here is why...we use the wrong definition of diversity. We think of diversity as differences in color, gender, religion, ethnic origin, when it reality it doesn't mean squat. Let's use race as an example. I can find you a black, white, latino, asian, and mixed SF guy and as x sf med says, they are the same "rifle green". Crossed Arrows worn proudly, I can guarantee they are all type-A, aggressive, savvy, smart, talented guys that want to keep swinging the bat for America. That doesn't mean they think different or act different. They could all be arrogant rapport crushers (I've met them all) I can also find you men of all five color groups previously mentioned who "grew up in poor/broken homes, went to bad schools, had bad parents, no parents, or single parents, never had any money, and overcame a metric ton of adversity to achieve their goals but someone mentored them correctly (coach, parent, teacher, etc.)" Different skin colors, but the same experience. That quoted line is the contextual background for affirmative action, minority admissions, and other such programs. Just having the color wheel represented within an organization does not denote diversity. It is the breadth of individual experiences which creates diversity.

Breadth of experience, broad experiences, DIVERSE experiences. This is what we, the military, civilian companies, other organizations should strive for.

The best boss I ever had before going into SF was a female from the Transportation Corps. She was also homosexual, at a time when it was illegal to be open. She was the best for a number of reasons, not the least of which were her competence, common sense, and focus on the mission. She was an exceptional leader for all the reasons we define leaders as exceptional (competence, integrity, aggressive, physically fit, ability to accomplish the mission, care for soldiers, etc). The point is, the fact she is female or homosexual should not matter. She was the best boss I ever had between 2005 and 2011, period.

Ranger Psych is correct. Plenty of men tried and failed at Ranger School, SFAS, the Infantry, or any number of difficult things within the military. There are certain men and women I've encountered that I never trusted in combat or training. Thankfully, they left units quickly or were marginalized to minimize negative impact on the force. There are men and women I've encountered who are exceptional Soldiers in combat and training. I've been lucky and fortunate to fight the enemy by their side. Sure, there may be only 1-2 women who could pass Ranger School or Infantry School but hell, why not? They bleed the same as us, they are as smart as us, can be as aggressive as us, etc. This is where Capt Serrano is incorrect.

The mission is gender-neutral. Combat is gender-neutral. Physical fitness is gender-neutral. The ability to carry a ruck, weapon, and your buddy under fire is gender-neutral. The word Soldier is gender-neutral! The right Soldiers will accomplish all of those tasks successfully, and then some. Uphold the one same standard we all know to be true, and our survivability on the battlefield is not negatively affected. Any boss worth his salt is going to select the best team to accomplish the mission, period. There were days I didn't take my female CST on patrol but it wasn't because they were women...it was because they were not going to help me accomplish the mission. I took both ladies in support of a commando op once and it proved most successful. The same goes for the female CA medic I worked with. Some teams didn't want a female on their firebase but a couple others, including mine, took the approach of "well, we have three SOCM trained medics now...better for us!".

The brotherhood exists whether there are women around or not, and truly exists overseas. Ask any Soldier...a man can ruin the feeling of Brotherhood just as easily. It's called "personality conflicts." Sure, the CA folks, CSTs, and other enablers knew that they weren't SF Soldiers but they never tried to act like SF soldiers. They performed as competent, aggressive, well-trained Soldiers and on that foundation we built successful teamwork. Performance matters, and mission accomplishment with the best team has primacy.

Assault and harassment occurred with women outside of the Infantry, and unfortunately will continue within it. It's a leadership issue and a character issue. Men and women of good moral compass will not participate in such acts, period. Our entire SOTF did not have a signal incident occur over the last five years. That is more common than people think or know.

Capt Serrano is right on two counts: it isn't about the individual, and the infantry isn't broken. I counter that all team members should have opportunities to serve in all capacities and just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it can't become something better. Soldier is a gender-neutral, ethnic-neutral, color-neutral term. The same goes for Airman, Marine, Sailor, and Guardsman. The mission we conduct is gender neutral, as are the known requirements to conduct that mission successfully. Meet the requirements, accomplish the mission.

Who cares about whether the Soldier in charge, getting an award, getting promoted, or getting kicked out for doing something dumb is black, white, asian, latino, mixed, male, female, gay, or straight? If the Army is serious about diversity, it will get rid of those metrics. If it is serious about diversity, it will focus on the Soldier, breadth of experience, and proper talent management throughout the ranks.

The End!

Boom.
 
I can't disagree with your remarks on Bn level command, because I have no way to truly understand the scope of duties and responsibilities.

But I will say this- at the Bn level, you have several leadership filters between your decisions and the end user. At the company grade, you may literally be making life or death decisions.

This is true and not true at the same time. Most combat nowadays takes place at the small unit level and a good squad leader or platoon sergeant can make up for field grade failings. The battalion commander sets the tone for everything with every decision and action he makes. Keep in mind that most infantry units are made up of brand new recruits with a cadre of NCOs to lead them. The command climate will shape how this is done. A unit normally adopts the attitude of the commander. It's hard to explain how this happens but it's happened at every unit I've ever been at. A micro-managing battalion commander usually creates micro-managing company commanders who in turn create micro managing platoon commanders and so on. Also keep in mind that the battalion commander sets the tone for fires (who gets it and when), acceptable collateral damage, ROE (and his interpretation of it), good order and discipline, troop lay down, medical support lay down, push/pull logistics, campaign planning etc. Does his unit go hunting HVIs? Heavy patrolling? Focus on the local people? It all starts at the top.

I once knew a battalion commander who was convinced that the key to his battlespace was controlling the lines of communication. He defined this as the major dirt highway that connected the ring road to the major town in the district. I, and many others, offered that driving the highway was a suicide mission because of the impossible number of IEDs the enemy emplaced there and that convoys could easily take the open desert and reach their destination unharmed. You don't have to own the road to control the LOCs if you can easily drive off it. He put all his combat power on the road, created outposts every two kilometers and 15 Marines died. They never did manage to control the road. Meanwhile the other 5 districts in his AO suffered for lack of combat power.
 
I don't manage. I command. There is an art to fighting a battalion and I learned that as a battalion operations officer.

There was no mention of these skills being specifically part of management or command.

Operating a private health care business is, however, much more command than anything else.
 
There was no mention of these skills being specifically part of management or command.

Operating a private health care business is, however, much more command than anything else.

You manage a private health care business. You command a battalion. A manager administers systems, focuses on outputs and tries to maximize efficiency. A commander has to do many of the same things (or the XO and OPSO do anyway) but also focus on the development, discipline and well being of his people at a level that does not exist outside of the military. A manager can discard a poor performer. A commander is on the hook for his people until they are given orders out of their unit or discharged from service no matter how bad they are.

They also are responsible for setting policies and directives on everything from equal opportunity to motorcycle safety. A manager isn't responsible for disciplining their people. A commander (in the Marine Corps anyway) can reduce a Marine by one rank, put them on a work detail for 45 days, confine them to quarters for 45 days and cut their pay in half for two months. Marine fails to pay his child support? Somehow that is my problem as a commander. Marine buys a corvette at 20% APR? My problem.

I've never worked outside the military but I can't imagine that a manager would mentor, coach and develop their subordinates to the level that a battalion commander does to their subordinate company commanders. I think that managing a clinic may make you a better OPSO or XO and many aspects of managing a business are similar to command but management is not the same as command.
 
You manage a private health care business. You command a battalion. A manager administers systems, focuses on outputs and tries to maximize efficiency. A commander has to do many of the same things (or the XO and OPSO do anyway) but also focus on the development, discipline and well being of his people at a level that does not exist outside of the military. A manager can discard a poor performer. A commander is on the hook for his people until they are given orders out of their unit or discharged from service no matter how bad they are.

They also are responsible for setting policies and directives on everything from equal opportunity to motorcycle safety. A manager isn't responsible for disciplining their people. A commander (in the Marine Corps anyway) can reduce a Marine by one rank, put them on a work detail for 45 days, confine them to quarters for 45 days and cut their pay in half for two months. Marine fails to pay his child support? Somehow that is my problem as a commander. Marine buys a corvette at 20% APR? My problem.

I've never worked outside the military but I can't imagine that a manager would mentor, coach and develop their subordinates to the level that a battalion commander does to their subordinate company commanders. I think that managing a clinic may make you a better OPSO or XO and many aspects of managing a business are similar to command but management is not the same as command.

I agree with regards to difference between a manager and the position of command. Where private sector and command do share similarities is in being the actual owner of a business or the CEO. Where the buck stops with you, you set the tone of the business and are ultimately responsible for the success and failures of the specific goal (mission if you will) of that business.

I also agree that anything outside of the military, except possibly FIRE/EMS/LE, and specific disaster relief style civilian equivalent, is far outside of the scope of a true command. Where decisions result in life and death of your own people or the life and death of others, and overall success of the objectives.

That said, being well diverse in multiple areas of management and leadership, also allows you to take other unorthodox approach's to issues that are found when in command of a military unit the likes of an infantry battalion.
 
You manage a private health care business. You command a battalion. A manager administers systems, focuses on outputs and tries to maximize efficiency. A commander has to do many of the same things (or the XO and OPSO do anyway) but also focus on the development, discipline and well being of his people at a level that does not exist outside of the military. A manager can discard a poor performer. A commander is on the hook for his people until they are given orders out of their unit or discharged from service no matter how bad they are.

They also are responsible for setting policies and directives on everything from equal opportunity to motorcycle safety. A manager isn't responsible for disciplining their people. A commander (in the Marine Corps anyway) can reduce a Marine by one rank, put them on a work detail for 45 days, confine them to quarters for 45 days and cut their pay in half for two months. Marine fails to pay his child support? Somehow that is my problem as a commander. Marine buys a corvette at 20% APR? My problem.

I've never worked outside the military but I can't imagine that a manager would mentor, coach and develop their subordinates to the level that a battalion commander does to their subordinate company commanders. I think that managing a clinic may make you a better OPSO or XO and many aspects of managing a business are similar to command but management is not the same as command.

Command is exercising control over a particular group or operation. This is exactly most of what someone in charge of a private health care business does on a daily basis.

Now imagine being BC, CO, XO, leading, administrating and managing the show all at the same time.

There are, of course, basic differences in the product of effort in either case.
 
Command is exercising control over a particular group or operation. This is exactly most of what someone in charge of a private health care business does on a daily basis.

Now imagine being BC, CO, XO, leading, administrating and managing the show all at the same time.

There are, of course, basic differences in the product of effort in either case.

I would argue that no one outside of the military controls anything. Service members are bound by oath (and the UCMJ) to obey all lawful orders. That is control. Civilians, with the possible exception of law enforcement, lead and manage. I don't think even the police swear an oath to obey their superior officers. Someone who manages a private health care clinic will certainly have many skills that would assist them if they were put in command of an infantry battalion. I wouldn't go so far to say that a health clinic is similar to command though.

Control is also exercised very differently. A commander uses mission type orders, commander's intent, defined end states and control tools such as C2pC/CPOF, radio networks, computer networks to help drive his subordinates to a common goal. I have spent a significant amount of time in command in the Marine Corps but I think I would struggle initially if I was given an Army infantry battalion because the systems, from control to supply and administration, are different.
 
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