Women in Combat Arms/ SOF Discussion

[DocIllinois]

No one outside the military controlling anything is interesting to imagine, I suppose.

I generate and enforce policy, control the assets and resources of the organization, determine the power structure of the entire organization, exert influence through the actions of a subordinate leader and representatives, and tell someone in my employ to take a hike if they aren't consistently performing to a standard that I set (giving more personnel control than a military commander.)

IOW, I would offer that means and techniques of control in one arena which fail to exactly match another do not equate to zero control.

On top of all that, this is done while in never ending competition with others who are offering a same or similar service.


Edit - I'm responsible for a sidebar here, apologies to the Mods.

 

[Teufel]

No one outside the military controlling anything is interesting to imagine, I suppose.

I generate and enforce policy, control the assets and resources of the organization, determine the power structure of the entire organization, exert influence through the actions of a subordinate leader and representatives, and tell someone in my employ to take a hike if they aren't consistently performing to a standard that I set (giving more personnel control than a military commander.)

IOW, I would offer that means and techniques of control in one arena which fail to exactly match another do not equate to zero control.

On top of all that, this is done while in never ending competition with others who are offering a same or similar service.


Edit - I'm responsible for a sidebar here, apologies to the Mods.

Hillary Clinton generates and enforces policy, controls the assets and resources of an organization, determines power structure and exerts influence but I wouldn't put her in command of an infantry battalion.

I understand that this has become a discussion about your qualifications to command an infantry battalion based on your personal experience running a clinic. Would you say that your competitors are all equally qualified?

 

[DocIllinois]

The sidebar subject was civilian management skills which translate/ transcend into military performance. That mutated into whether command happens outside of the military.

This an independent topic and no longer applies to the thread subject, IMO.

 

[Florida173]

Female Marine rifleman, machine gunner headed to the infantry

Female Marine rifleman, machine gunner headed to the infantry

Since no women have graduated from the service’s Infantry Officer Course, female Marine or Navy officers assigned to infantry battalions will serve in support roles. The 30th female Marine to attempt IOC left her class on April 21 after she was unable to complete two hikes. She has the opportunity to attempt the course again in July.

Interesting read.

 

[8654Maine]

Female Marine rifleman, machine gunner headed to the infantry


Interesting read.

From the above article:
"Starting this month, a training team will visit Marine Corps installations to explain the service’s gender integration plan."

WTF do you need a "training team" for explanations if things are the same and standards are the same?

Sounds like "sensitivity training" to me.

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Sounds like "sensitivity training" to me.

Yeah but....

“This is not sensitivity training," Kulczewski told Marine Corps Times in April.
“The focus will be on the details of the implementation plan and how it affects all Marines' best practices.”

 

[ThunderHorse]

From the above article:
"Starting this month, a training team will visit Marine Corps installations to explain the service’s gender integration plan."

WTF do you need a "training team" for explanations if things are the same and standards are the same?

Sounds like "sensitivity training" to me.

This is my biggest issue with this whole boondoggle.

 

[ThunderHorse]

This: GOP blocks provision to require women to register for draft

 

[Ooh-Rah]

This: GOP blocks provision to require women to register for draft

"NOW" this is important?

The committee’s chairman, Rep. Pete Sessions, R-Texas, said in a statement Tuesday the action was taken to prevent what he called a “reckless policy” from moving forward without closer study of its impact.

ETA - I genuinely question whether a draft would even be effective anymore. Today's entitled teenagers are only slightly more so their their parents. Were the draft actually needed today, I think that the exodus to other lands and draft dodging would make the Vietnam era seem like they had full participation. Typing this is making my head hurt because it is forcing me to come to terms with the idea that those willing to sacrifice for something are becoming far fewer than those who want someone else to do it for them.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I guess that equality only goes so far...

 

[Devildoc]

The GOP...oh, the GOP....once again showing their irrelevance. I swear in Washington one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. Maybe if Congress had done its due diligence and proper oversight this whole thread wouldn't even be a thing.

 

[Mad boomer]

Not sure if this was ever posted here: I just ran across it. The Irony: An Unequal Application of Gender Equality

At 55, 20# overweight, and several injuries, I could still be in the Infantry, at the female standard... Hummm ;)

 

[TLDR20]

At 55, 20# overweight, and several injuries, I could still be in the Infantry, at the female standard... Hummm ;)

There isn't a female standard in the infantry.

 

[Mad boomer]

See "score allowed to graduate from AIT and the requirements for your semi-annual Army PFT " there after Army Basic Training PFT | Military.com

 

[policemedic]

That article points out the difference in PT scores, which have always been different. To be fair, there should be only one PT in combat arms--the male standard. Lowering it to the female level is silly.

However, @TLDR20 is right. I've seen nothing to indicate that the individual go/no-go events in Infantry OSUT will be scored differently. Packing lists and ruck times are the same regardless of who you are.

There's also the issue of unit standards. When I was in the 7th ID(L), we completed 25 mile rucks regularly and we did it as a unit. If you fell out, torture and damnation befell you. Once you get out of the schoolhouse where the standard is individual and move into an Infantry company where the standard is what the unit is expected to be able to do, things change a bit.

 

[Devildoc]

Once you get out of the schoolhouse where the standard is individual and move into an Infantry company where the standard is what the unit is expected to be able to do, things change a bit.

Field Med school is a Marine Corps command, with both Navy and Marine standards. Same ruck and PFT standards as SOI. My first platoon out of school, that standard, <ahem>, changed...a tad. My first ruck hump was a real gut-check, by far the fastest I had done to that point.

 

[Florida173]

That article points out the difference in PT scores, which have always been different. To be fair, there should be only one PT in combat arms--the male standard. Lowering it to the female level is silly.

However, @TLDR20 is right. I've seen nothing to indicate that the individual go/no-go events in Infantry OSUT will be scored differently

The point is that there is no such thing as a combat arms fitness standard. Fitness is solely based on gender and age. All the go/no go events are I'd imagine the same as those in standard basic training.

 

[Mad boomer]

The point is that there is no such thing as a combat arms fitness standard. Fitness is solely based on gender and age. All the go/no go events are I'd imagine the same as those in standard basic training.

To be awarded the MOS you must pass a final scored PT test. Of course along with the events "GO" or "NO GO" included in the course requirements. The standards of females and males is different. These are not equal nor the same. It will be interesting to see how this shakes down at Benning, and the unit level.

 

[Marauder06]

Now that men and women are functionally interchangeable, there should be no gender-based differences in standards. This specifically includes PT and appearance/grooming. I don't care what the standard is; one standard across the board for everyone.

 

[pardus]

Now that men and women are functionally interchangeable, there should be no gender-based differences in standards. This specifically includes PT and appearance/grooming. I don't care what the standard is; one standard across the board for everyone.

That truly is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. How can there now remain a double standard for PT scores/grooming etc... with this new change? It's preposterous.