2016 Presidential Race

[TLDR20]

The debates will be quite interesting, don't you think?

I am looking forward to them. I think they will be must watch TV. I do however think Trump will make a fool of himself, or at least come across as the liberal I think he is. He probably agrees with Hillary more than he disagrees.

Apart from immigration, which I think is a red herring, he doesn't have any set in stone plans. He has words and no implementation strategy.

I also cannot believe he has only one office in Florida, wtf?

Edited to add: he has opened offices in Florida in the last week.

 

[AWP]

She released her medical records faster than her email from State? Hilarious.

I agree this is being blown out of proportion and we know people are now watching this like a hawk, but "c'mon, man." If something crops up people will trip over themselves to out the story. Time to move on.

 

[Brill]

She released her medical records faster than her email from State? Hilarious.

I agree this is being blown out of proportion and we know people are now watching this like a hawk, but "c'mon, man." If something crops up people will trip over themselves to out the story. Time to move on.

Everybody gets sick. So WHY lie about it? THAT is the real issue.

 

[Gunz]

...we deserve honest answers to honest questions...

We're talking politicians, here, my friend

 

[RackMaster]

There's more detail on his page.

DONALD J. TRUMP POSITIONS

 

[Devildoc]

Everybody gets sick. So WHY lie about it? THAT is the real issue.

Therein lies the rub. Honestly, most people could not give two shits about her health. It is...what it is. But the lies and the obfuscation about that, on top of the lies and obfuscation about everything else, is a "tell."

 

[Red Flag 1]

Therein lies the rub. Honestly, most people could not give two shits about her health. It is...what it is. But the lies and the obfuscation about that, on top of the lies and obfuscation about everything else, is a "tell."

So it begs the question, rhetorical perhaps, how is she doing as well as she is, and why should she be POTUS?

 

[Devildoc]

So it begs the question, rhetorical perhaps, how is she doing as well as she is, and why should she be POTUS?

Well, I don't think it's rhetorical but I do think it's academic. How she is doing as well as she is is because of her cozy relationship with the media. I do think if she was honest and forthcoming it wouldn't nearly be the issue that it is. But she hides so much about so much that at first pass there's at least an appearance of impropriety. And why should she be POTUS? Well, 'Merica. Until she is indicted of something enough people will swallow her lines to vote her in. It's the American way.

 

[TLDR20]

I guess I don't get it. How is this even a thing ? She was sick, fell out, and we are upset that she didn't immediately say she was sick? Maybe she didn't say she was sick because she didn't want idiots to think she was dying. Again she has no responsibility to tell people her personal health information.

 

[Il Duce]

Thought this was a good summary of the same points @TLDR20 has been making http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/o...0160913&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=41336949&_r=0

I agree with @TLDR20 wholeheartedly on having consistent standards to evaluate. I would take it even wider than the presidential elections. Don't throw your hands up in the air in disgust when you read about Russians or Pakistanis blaming every internal problem on American intervention and conspiracy then turn around and embrace every fact-free rumor you hear about politicians you disagree with.

 

[Devildoc]

I guess I don't get it. How is this even a thing ? She was sick, fell out, and we are upset that she didn't immediately say she was sick? Maybe she didn't say she was sick because she didn't want idiots to think she was dying. Again she has no responsibility to tell people her personal health information.

I agree, her health is hers and hers alone, she can tell whomever she wants, whenever she wants. To that I totally agree. It is a thing because it has been made a thing. Real or not, by being made a thing (by the media, by Trump, etc) AND the ensuing mixed messages her camp has sent out, it gives an appearance of stone-walling and lying, whether it's true or not.

Campaign season for better or worse (usually worse) opens the door to the candidates personal lives, and unless they choose to stay in front of issues like this, the opposition will drive the debate. It was no different than Teddy Kennedy and Chappquiddick or Bush Junior and his drinking and coke.

 

[Brill]

I guess I don't get it. How is this even a thing ? She was sick, fell out, and we are upset that she didn't immediately say she was sick? Maybe she didn't say she was sick because she didn't want idiots to think she was dying. Again she has no responsibility to tell people her personal health information.

You're right. But she she's known to be untruthful so why not try for an easy win? Easier to be honest here than all the other Clinton scandals.
These two candidates are vying for registered independents, not their respective parties who will go along party lines.

 

[Devildoc]

Just because, you know, there isn't enough drama....

Clinton team avoided ER to conceal details of her medical treatment | New York Post

 

[Salt USMC]

Everybody gets sick. So WHY lie about it? THAT is the real issue.

Heard some good commentary on this very issue on the FiveThirtyEight podcast.

Essentially, the well of discourse surrounding Hillary's health has been irrevocably poisoned by spurious rumors and conspiracy theories. We can't sensibly talk about Hillary's health without the specter of some outlandish claim hanging over it. You know what the source of the whole Clinton Seizure/Parkinson's thing was? Fucking InfoWars. The same site that constantly posits that the New World Order is going to destroy America any day now, that lizard people run international banking, and that the government is creating tornadoes to erase the Midwest. Fun stuff, right?

Normally, people would dismiss his claims for the bullshit that they are, but because it was Hillary Clinton (the person whom conservative America considers the final boss of American liberalism), they enthusiastically seized upon it. So now the news media is running with this story as nearly fact, and anything that relates to Clinton's health immediately becomes suspect. Remember that coughing fit a few weeks back? That kind of coughing fit would be brushed off for any normal candidate, but because it was Hillary Clinton, the alt-right weirdos tried their damndest to shoehorn it into their Seizure/Parkinson's/SuperAIDS theory.

So what do you do if you're Hillary Clinton and you develop pneumonia? As I see it, you've got a few options:
A. Get the pneumonia diagnosis, get treatment, and tell people that you're not going to make the 9/11 memorial
B. Get the pneumonia diagnosis, get treatment, and don't tell people that you're not going to make the 9/11 memorial
C. Get the pneumonia diagnosis, get treatment, go to the 9/11 memorial and pray to god that nothing happens.

Both scenarios A and B would cause the conspiracy crowd to shout from the rooftops that Hillary's Zika Seizures are flaring up and that she's literally days away from dying. The headlines on Drudge would read "HILLARY'S LAST DAYS?". It would be an absolute frenzy of bullshit. Clinton gambled on C, and it didn't work, but it was also the only option that had a shot of working, so I agree with her decision to go that way. This incident proves that no matter what Hillary's actual health problems are, her detractors will always find some way to insert their own bizarre irreality into the narrative.

 

[Il Duce]

@Deathy McDeath I think those are great points. Also starts to get into the thought process of the Clintons I think. I think from their perspective they've viewed almost all press coverage and opposition thought in this light - that whatever they do the wackos are going to lead the show with no discernible relationship to reality or rationality. I think in those conditions the Clinton's lack of transparency and affinity for secrecy/privacy - even when politically damaging - makes much more sense.

Or, they're evil incarnate. Which of course, will really upset the Cthulu for president campaign whose slogan is 'Why settle for the lesser evil?'

 

[Ranger Psych]

80's in a suit? With humidity? I would be sucking.

Except she has effectively unlimited funds compared to prole, therefore being able to buy and dress in a suit weather-appropriate should be something within her means.

Alternatively, maybe she isn't a woman physically and mentally capable of performing in a career field primarily comprised of men? The OJ and cookies are at the campfire, you just have to quit.... Lol.

Heard some good commentary on this very issue on the FiveThirtyEight podcast.

Essentially, the well of discourse surrounding Hillary's health has been irrevocably poisoned by spurious rumors and conspiracy theories. We can't sensibly talk about Hillary's health without the specter of some outlandish claim hanging over it. You know what the source of the whole Clinton Seizure/Parkinson's thing was? Fucking InfoWars. The same site that constantly posits that the New World Order is going to destroy America any day now, that lizard people run international banking, and that the government is creating tornadoes to erase the Midwest. Fun stuff, right?

Normally, people would dismiss his claims for the bullshit that they are, but because it was Hillary Clinton (the person whom conservative America considers the final boss of American liberalism), they enthusiastically seized upon it. So now the news media is running with this story as nearly fact, and anything that relates to Clinton's health immediately becomes suspect. Remember that coughing fit a few weeks back? That kind of coughing fit would be brushed off for any normal candidate, but because it was Hillary Clinton, the alt-right weirdos tried their damndest to shoehorn it into their Seizure/Parkinson's/SuperAIDS theory.

So what do you do if you're Hillary Clinton and you develop pneumonia? As I see it, you've got a few options:
A. Get the pneumonia diagnosis, get treatment, and tell people that you're not going to make the 9/11 memorial
B. Get the pneumonia diagnosis, get treatment, and don't tell people that you're not going to make the 9/11 memorial
C. Get the pneumonia diagnosis, get treatment, go to the 9/11 memorial and pray to god that nothing happens.

Both scenarios A and B would cause the conspiracy crowd to shout from the rooftops that Hillary's Zika Seizures are flaring up and that she's literally days away from dying. The headlines on Drudge would read "HILLARY'S LAST DAYS?". It would be an absolute frenzy of bullshit. Clinton gambled on C, and it didn't work, but it was also the only option that had a shot of working, so I agree with her decision to go that way. This incident proves that no matter what Hillary's actual health problems are, her detractors will always find some way to insert their own bizarre irreality into the narrative.

Option D, be open about a diagnosis and treatment plan, and rock a wheelchair. I might actually respect someone that does that... it's not like we have these things for a reason, or had a prez in the past that did.

 

[Gunz]

The issue is, she's having episodes. And nobody knows when of if she'll have another one. The four-and-a-half minute coughing fit, the near face-plant the other day...and it would've been a face-plant if there hadn't been people there to hold her up. And she's admitted to Anderson Cooper that's she's "passed out a few times." WTF does that mean? And how many is a few? And how normal is that? It doesn't sound normal to me. You guys think everybody in their sixties goes around passing out all the time? I've had three concussions severe enough to knock me out and I don't go around fainting.

Look, admittedly, this is going to be super-hyped by people who dont like her and super down-played by her supporters. But I think it's suspicious enough to warrant some concern. And I suspect those closest to her are also harboring more concern and worry than they would ever share publicly. This may happen to her again and nobody can prevent it.

 

[Red Flag 1]

If you wonder about the health of a candidate being important, you only need to look back to FDR's last administration. He was a man who was about to die. Some never thought he would make it to win his final election. It was all covered up. He won his fourth term, and WW II was winding down. Three leaders met at Yalta to discuss how Germany was going to be handled after the war. The War was pretty much in the bag, it was just the stuff after that they were talking about.

FDR had all he could do to attend to his personal needs, eat, shave, get dressed; all of which exhausted him. The agenda for the day's meeting was briefly discussed, and issues were divided up among his staff to get settled as best they could. FDR had very little personal input regarding discussions. The one thing that FDR did see he could do, was to come between Stalin and Churchill during their brief meetings. One such meeting was the official of the three leaders. Churchill was on FDR's right, Stalin on the left. In the photo, FDR looked totally wasted, because he was. If FDR had died a month or so earlier, it is unlikely that so much territory in Eastern Europe would have been left for Stalin to rule. I'll look for a photo to ETA.

The health of each Presidential candidate is a matter of not only National but Global interest. The same is true for honest answers to honest questions, from both candidates.. Today, that does not seem very likely.

My$.02. Back to my wee cave in The Valley


ETA Yalta Photo: The Big Three at Yalta

 

[Il Duce]

I would have thought Woodrow Wilson would be the reference. Maybe I'm misremembering but didn't he have a stroke in his second term and his wife and chief of staff essentially kept it secret from everyone?

 

[Red Flag 1]

I would have thought Woodrow Wilson would be the reference. Maybe I'm misremembering but didn't he have a stroke in his second term and his wife and chief of staff essentially kept it secret from everyone?

I live not far from Wilson's birthplace. I do not know enough about Wilson to use him as an example. I am not up to speed on the state of Wilson's health prior to his election. It is my understanding that the First Lady made many important "Presidential" decisions for the ailing Wilson.