2016 Presidential Race

[JAG2]

If voter fraud was an issue that could be solved *without* depriving innocent people of their vote, then I agree, there would be zero reason to let it slide. Heck, even if voter fraud was an issue that involved more than a handful of cases, I'd designate it as much more urgent. But right now, neither of these are true. The solutions proposed would deny thousands of innocents their ability to vote, in an effort to stop far fewer people from committing voter fraud. That's unacceptable. Many credible sources, both on the right and the left, acknowledge that voter fraud is not currently in a position to influence elections by any significant amount. The people who are pushing for these laws are doing it more for the 'principle' of preventing the crime. Even if by doing so, they are hurting far, *far* more innocents.

 

[Devildoc]

If voter fraud was an issue that could be solved *without* depriving innocent people of their vote, then I agree, there would be zero reason to let it slide. Heck, even if voter fraud was an issue that involved more than a handful of cases, I'd designate it as much more urgent. But right now, neither of these are true. The solutions proposed would deny thousands of innocents their ability to vote, in an effort to stop far fewer people from committing voter fraud. That's unacceptable. Many credible sources, both on the right and the left, acknowledge that voter fraud is not currently in a position to influence elections by any significant amount. The people who are pushing for these laws are doing it more for the 'principle' of preventing the crime. Even if by doing so, they are hurting far, *far* more innocents.

While it is hard to prove a negative about what may or may not happen, it does influence elections:

Al Franken May Have Won His Senate Seat Through Voter Fraud

If people applied the same well-it's-not-enough-for-it-to-be-a-problem logic to any other aspect of law, the logic breaks down: 30 murders are OK; after all it's not 100. But wait, you say...that's not a Constitutional issue. OK...the police searches a house without a warrant just a couple times, it's OK, right? I mean, it's not like it's 30 times.

Photo ID will not deprive people of their vote, and the cost of it would be negligible. While booze, smokes, and hotel rooms (all things that require an ID) are not Constitutional mandates and poor examples, one does need a photo ID to apply for welfare, medicare, and medical benefits under Obamacare. In my hospital, when you check into any clinic, registration, or the ED, you must show a photo ID. I think we're past the point of proven it is not burdensome.

 

[JAG2]

While it is hard to prove a negative about what may or may not happen, it does influence elections:

Al Franken May Have Won His Senate Seat Through Voter Fraud

If people applied the same well-it's-not-enough-for-it-to-be-a-problem logic to any other aspect of law, the logic breaks down: 30 murders are OK; after all it's not 100. But wait, you say...that's not a Constitutional issue. OK...the police searches a house without a warrant just a couple times, it's OK, right? I mean, it's not like it's 30 times.

Photo ID will not deprive people of their vote, and the cost of it would be negligible. While booze, smokes, and hotel rooms (all things that require an ID) are not Constitutional mandates and poor examples, one does need a photo ID to apply for welfare, medicare, and medical benefits under Obamacare. In my hospital, when you check into any clinic, registration, or the ED, you must show a photo ID. I think we're past the point of proven it is not burdensome.

The Al Franken thing is still contested. Calling out voter-fraud is a very common response to elections such as these. Granted, there is indeed a possibility that voter fraud did influence this election, but until that possibility is confirmed, this is not proof that it 'does' influence elections.

"[Franken's] lead recount attorney, Marc Elias, said that Coleman's attorneys had acknowledged in their 2009 Minnesota Supreme Court recount challenge that they had found no evidence of voter fraud. "If they thought that there was evidence of widespread voter fraud that could have benefited Franken, I have no doubt that they would have brought it forward," Elias said. In fact, the only allegation of felonious voting in the election was raised by Franken's legal team, which cited the case of a man in Warroad, Minn., with a felony conviction who voted for Coleman."
Pawlenty: Investigate felon votes in Senate race

Second, your analogy doesn't work. If the US passed a law that would crack down on murderers and arrest them, but it had the side effect of arresting many innocents too, that would be more accurate. My point is not that the fraud is too small to care about. My point is that innocents would suffer more than the culprits would.

Third, yes, and ID is burdensome to many people. Doesn't seem that way to us because we already have IDs, but many people are in situations we can't imagine who can not get accepted forms of ID.
Someone posted a clip on Jon Oliver explaining this very nicely earlier. If you scroll back and take a look, he goes in depth in describing how difficult or even impossible it could be to get an ID for many people.

 

[racing_kitty]

For everyone that screams "Ooooooh, obtaining ID disadvantages the poor," why don't you go make a difference locally and help someone procure one. Donate your precious time, and cherished portraits of Lincoln, Jackson, and Washington, instead of bitching about it online or in your respective echo chambers.

 

[JAG2]

For everyone that screams "Ooooooh, obtaining ID disadvantages the poor," why don't you go make a difference locally and help someone procure one. Donate your precious time, and cherished portraits of Lincoln, Jackson, and Washington, instead of bitching about it online or in your respective echo chambers.

I mean...I feel like dialogue like this is kind of healthy to have. It's how ideas are shaped and policy ideas are formed. Plus I love debating with people who have different opinions, it keeps my sharp and sometimes even changes my mind and evolved my views. I wouldn't call it "bitching" in an "echo chamber".

 

[racing_kitty]

I mean...I feel like dialogue like this is kind of healthy to have. It's how ideas are shaped and policy ideas are formed. Plus I love debating with people who have different opinions, it keeps my sharp and sometimes even changes my mind and evolved my views. I wouldn't call it "bitching" in an "echo chamber".

Talk is good for evolving ideas. But ideas have to become actions at some point.

 

[Single Malt]

I disagree with this. We can't spend all this time always moving forward, attacking controversial governance problems like individual rights and all sorts of other incremental things whose collective accumulation over the years completely changes society generation to generation and then say voter fraud is not a big deal. To get people to believe in the process and the government itself (which should be a goal of any governing body) is paramount. People are already disenfranchised with the concept of "my vote is important". Add voter fraud in the mix and a lot of people just say fuck it. Get enough people to say fuck it, and then, the government goes beyond its legitimate control, but nothing changes because the voters don't believe that they possesses the power to change it anyway. Eventually, you end up with the piss poor excuse of an election that we have now or in more advanced cases, Ukraine pre-Crimea etc.

The point isn't that voter fraud is not important, it is that at the capacity that may be happening at the moment in US in federal elections (most importantly the presidential one), it is not significant enough to show any change whatsoever. So far what has been recorded has been mostly systematic errors (see the video I posted and look into the studies Oliver cites), and even those have been insignificant to change the outcome of any elections. There are much more important issues that could be resolved (how about easier access to VA hospitals) than this non-issue of voter IDs. Voter IDs are not a clever solution at all, IDs can be faked (see any college campus in the country) so if there was this systematic fraud that the Democrats are running, I am sure they would be printing fake ones in no time and handing them out to any illegal immigrant they could pick up at Home Depot. How does that sound?

 

[Brill]

Interesting stats from the FEC.

Federal Election Commission

 

[Devildoc]

I appreciate others' perspectives, and to me it isn't necessarily a democrat-republican thing, although that's how it seems to turn out. If some states are requiring ID and it satisfies the courts, I am having trouble understanding how it cannot go nationwide. And to this end, I doubt anyone here will change my mind so I am open to declaring a modus vivendi.

 

[Salt USMC]

Guys. GUYS.

Do you realize that in just about a month the election will be over? This horseshit election in the Year of Our Lord 2016, our long national nightmare, the Revenge of the 90's, will finally be over. One candidate will become president, one will (hopefully) bow out gracefully, and (hopefully) fade away into obscurity forever.

That being settled, we will finally be able to turn our national outrage machine away from the election and on to more important matters, like whether a dress is blue or gold, or Brad and Angelina, or why @Freefalling doesn't do his Monday motivation posts! I, for one, am glad to be rid of this thing once and for all. Or, at least until 2020.

'Like' this post if you agree!

 

[Single Malt]

Guys. GUYS.

Do you realize that in just about a month the election will be over? This horseshit election in the Year of Our Lord 2016, our long national nightmare, the Revenge of the 90's, will finally be over. One candidate will become president, one will (hopefully) bow out gracefully, and (hopefully) fade away into obscurity forever.

That being settled, we will finally be able to turn our national outrage machine away from the election and on to more important matters, like whether a dress is blue or gold, or Brad and Angelina, or why @Freefalling doesn't do his Monday motivation posts! I, for one, am glad to be rid of this thing once and for all. Or, at least until 2020.

'Like' this post if you agree!

I was going to like your post, but then you went YouTube on us with the last sentence so:

 

[Devildoc]

Guys. GUYS.

Do you realize that in just about a month the election will be over? This horseshit election in the Year of Our Lord 2016, our long national nightmare, the Revenge of the 90's, will finally be over. One candidate will become president, one will (hopefully) bow out gracefully, and (hopefully) fade away into obscurity forever.

That being settled, we will finally be able to turn our national outrage machine away from the election and on to more important matters, like whether a dress is blue or gold, or Brad and Angelina, or why @Freefalling doesn't do his Monday motivation posts! I, for one, am glad to be rid of this thing once and for all. Or, at least until 2020.

'Like' this post if you agree!

I think everyone is getting testy the closer to my birthday, I mean, election day gets (shameless plug for my birthday ). I am at the head of that line. I am therefore tossing out a blanket "I agree to disagree" and moving on. I DO have more important quandaries to solve....like why the Carolina Panthers are SUCKING ass, and looking forward to seeing Duke basketball KICK ass.

 

[TLDR20]

For everyone that screams "Ooooooh, obtaining ID disadvantages the poor," why don't you go make a difference locally and help someone procure one. Donate your precious time, and cherished portraits of Lincoln, Jackson, and Washington, instead of bitching about it online or in your respective echo chambers.

Yeah I do this.

If you think this is an echo chamber for liberal ideas you are high.

 

[Kraut783]

I wish Texas would just provide a no cost TX ID card...that would be a quick solution and would provide the critics no room to complain about an law requiring an ID to vote.

No real excuse then, if you really have the want to vote, you can make a trip to the drivers license office.

 

[Salt USMC]

Fight me @amlove21

 

[Red Flag 1]

Guys. GUYS.

Do you realize that in just about a month the election will be over? This horseshit election in the Year of Our Lord 2016, our long national nightmare, the Revenge of the 90's, will finally be over. One candidate will become president, one will (hopefully) bow out gracefully, and (hopefully) fade away into obscurity forever.

That being settled, we will finally be able to turn our national outrage machine away from the election and on to more important matters, like whether a dress is blue or gold, or Brad and Angelina, or why @Freefalling doesn't do his Monday motivation posts! I, for one, am glad to be rid of this thing once and for all. Or, at least until 2020.

'Like' this post if you agree!

You are making the election out to be , on a par with what loaf of bread to buy. or what can of soup to buy. That is massively short sighted IMHO. There is a lot on the line here, perhaps more than some people think.

 

[DocIllinois]

I wonder how long "they've" been holding on to this:

Trump recorded having extremely lewd conversation about women in 2005

NSFW - (audio)

I'd be very surprised if both "Theys" don't still have dirt at the ready to mete out as needed, or according to a strategic timeline.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

It is easy for you to do it. It is not easy for a disabled poor black woman who is blind to do.

That's a load of crap, blind=on SSI disability, which means she can get free transport from any local ASA bus service, which means all she has to do is show up and spend a few hours at the DMV like the rest of us. I've got a blind friend (lost his sight in Iraq) who has been travelling the United States via plane and bus for the last couple of years. Can't see a fucking thing, but still visits all over. First he wanted to say he went to every state, now he wants to do the top 10 cities of every state.

It's not hard, they just got to get off their ass ans get it done.

I wonder how long "they've" been holding on to this:

Trump recorded having extremely lewd conversation about women in 2005

NSFW - (audio)

Not making excuses for Trump, but thats normal guy talk. Anyone of us would be doing any number of things, saying the same shit. Than again, none of us are running for POTUS.

 

[TLDR20]

That's a load of crap, blind=on SSI disability, which means she can get free transport from any local ASA bus service, which means all she has to do is show up and spend a few hours at the DMV like the rest of us. I've got a blind friend (lost his sight in Iraq) who has been travelling the United States via plane and bus for the last couple of years. Can't see a fucking thing, but still visits all over. First he wanted to say he went to every state, now he wants to do the top 10 cities of every state.

It's not hard, they just got to get off their ass ans get it done.

Your friend is an 85 year old diabetic woman with osteoporosis?

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

Your friend is an 85 year old diabetic woman with osteoporosis?

How is she getting her prescription without ID?

My 90 year old grandfather gets his DL at the DMV, can't even fucking walk, and lives in a retirement home.