Handgun for home defense

pardus said:
Well I guess we just both need to provide documentation/proof to back up our statements.
Click to expand...

I could scan in an entire text on this but won't (it's probably U/FOUO anyway). I sat through the class and watched the gelatin block tests myself. Penetration for a bonded 5.56 is around 16" and around 18" for the slug-this is from the book. Something to take into overall consideration is that roughly 80% or shots fired in engagements do not hit the target (granted, this is LE situations, but you get the point).

As for non-bonded .223 not breaking apart, the M855 begins to break apart at roughly 3" of penetration and is fully fragmented by 7".
 
JAB, Pardus -
Here are some good links to Terminal ballistics sites/articles/pdfs...
http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005smallarms/tuesday/macdougall.pdf
http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_rifle_bullets.htm

As you can see... there is some disagreement in the community about exact lethality at CQB ranges for rifle and pistol efficacy... read into it what you will, but I tried to grab differing views and civilian versus military.

Have fun.
 
Robert Palmer said:
So to sum up the advice from this thread: Hit the target or buy a shotgun...?
Click to expand...
No. You need to be able to hit the target with whatever you decide to buy/use for home protection. A shotgun is not some magical area weapon, you still have to aim it, especially when using buck shot or a slug (lethal loads) in close quarters (such as inside the home). Buck shot and slugs will penetrate at the same level as most pistol cartridges.
 
@RustyShackleford, regarding the test you are talking about, was that the 65-68gr "barrier blind" bonded round? If it is, and if I am not mistaken, that was designed to defeat intermediate barriers, such auto glass, sheet metal, etc, but while allow the projectile to continue into the intended target. Not an AP round, but better penetration without the fragmentation, etc. I think I read a report by Doc Gary Roberts on it.

@x SF med, I've got two of those reports. The issue at hand was not the lethallity of 5.56/223, but the penetration and fragmentation that pardus was questioning. I've said it for awhile around here, 556/223 is plenty lethal when the rounds are put in the right spot.

@pardus, I am willing to debate the subject further if you want to open another thread on the topic. I should be on a PC this evening and will post up some PDF's if you do decide to start another thread. It would be a great topic...
 
@JAB the lethality, penetration and fragmentation are covered if you read all 3 reports, and it also compares to the lethality versus handguns and shotguns. there is an over penetration issue with any high velocity round that does not find the right depth of target - and in many cases at short range any 5.56 or 7.62 round is too 'hot' to be stopped by the target unless you get total bone contact in multiple sites with the initial track... take the new green tip rounds... they're made to penetrate armor which strips dome of the case , then expand... no armor, and you've hit your target with a laser beam it punches right through the target, no energy transfer because condition one - stripping/compressing the shroud does not occur. close range FMJ/TMJ rifle rounds do the same thing although not as well.
 
@x SF med, the velocity of the round, is what causes the internal ballistic cavity (permanent and temp). The fragmenting, has to do with the actual shape of the projectile. Not all projectiles are equal. However, the M855 (green tip) is not an armor piecing round, and the steel core(s) is described to offer intermediate penetration on light material. It was actually designed for that and increased range/accuracy over the M193 (lead core) FMJ round. Although performance is lacking vs current projectile technology. At distances such as 50m- 350m (200m being the peak), yes M855 is morelike a "laser beam" in its through and through qualities. However, at "close range" the effect of the round is very different and there is significant studies and testing that prove that (yawing, tumbling and fragmentation).

Again I'll post more about it tonight...
 
JAB said:
@pardus, I am willing to debate the subject further if you want to open another thread on the topic. I should be on a PC this evening and will post up some PDF's if you do decide to start another thread. It would be a great topic...
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to debate it I was just sure I read that it had been debunked. I could be wrong. Possibly something to do with the change to the M855?
I know the old 55gr breaks up/stops relatively easily but the M855?

I will do some digging and look at everything posted in detail soon.
 
No worries, M855 at close range will also fragment, yaw and or tumble. I've read steadies that do claim different, but normally do not properly define the distance to test media. Those studies I tend to not pay much attention to, due to the lack of details (like distance, velocities, etc). The M855 is a bit inconsistent dependent on manufacturer as well, but that's another topic in itself.

I've got the USMC's lessons learned and review on M855 performances in Iraq, you would probably enjoy reading.
 
JAB said:
No worries, M855 at close range will also fragment, yaw and or tumble. I've read steadies that do claim different, but normally do not properly define the distance to test media. Those studies I tend to not pay much attention to, due to the lack of details (like distance, velocities, etc). The M855 is a bit inconsistent dependent on manufacturer as well, but that's another topic in itself.

I've got the USMC's lessons learned and review on M855 performances in Iraq, you would probably enjoy reading.
Click to expand...

I wonder if it was one of those studies I read. Who the fuck knows.

If you have an electronic version of the USMC document please email it to me, I would very much like to read it.
 
M855 was replaced about 3 years ago (8/2010) with the M855A1 ... because, in short the m855 sucked. the m855a1 is better, but still has issues.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

other countries go to larger round due to the 5.56 Nato rounds not adaptable to current battle conditions (trajectory, bullet drop, high/low angle shooting)
http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=778

Home protection/ terminal and flight ballistics of common calibers
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
 
My friends laugh at me but I keep a sharp Katana by my bed, no gun. I am some what of a nut...but their can be only one.
 
JAB said:
No. You need to be able to hit the target with whatever you decide to buy/use for home protection. A shotgun is not some magical area weapon, you still have to aim it, especially when using buck shot or a slug (lethal loads) in close quarters (such as inside the home). Buck shot and slugs will penetrate at the same level as most pistol cartridges.
Click to expand...

I just meant to deal with the penetration problem. Yes I plan to aim.
 

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