Really struggling with what to think of the NSA/phone story

JAB said:
I think the overall point is not that what he did was in his view morally right or wrong, but more so that he knew it was illegal and did it anyway. I personally am glad that he exposed these programs, as I believe the programs are illegal. There is a reason for the constitution, and this government is not IMO adhering to it.

However, I do not think Snowden went about it the right way, and do think the reactions would have been different if he had brought this stuff public here in the USA and took the very public approach here in the states. Although I cannot fault him for his wanting to not be tossed into a Max security prison with the key tossed away.

Manning IMHO, is a very different subject, and he is a traitor, and although Snowden is a traitor to this government as well, I think their actions and reasons were very different.

Snowden has a massive amount of data, that will hurt this country on all levels, the US gov, has admitted that, however, he was very careful of what he released. Manning, simply data-mined and released in mass, without caring who or how it would effect people/operations.
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Remember reading this back in June. I don't blame him for not going to the press here, or through "proper channels."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...istleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/
 
Scotth said:
Snowden isn't careful in what he released. He gave copies of all the documents to multiple reports who have spread the data out even further, not to mention we have no idea if that information was compromised by China and now Russia. They aren't dumping the data in mass because that would be the end of the story. They want the trickle trickle of data to keep the story alive longer. They release data related to who ever the US Government might be dealing with in the near future.
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I can only go off of the open source media. From what I can see the guardian has a large amount of data that the screened before release. The guardian and Snowden claimed that he had a lot more data, that has been heavily encrypted/secured. My digging around doesn't show any claims that snowden released data to anyone other than the guardian, China and Russia included.

Now I get what you are alluding to, and agree that it is very possible. But haven't seen any reports that support that any of it actually has happend.

Not to say those reports are not.out there, I just haven't seen them.
 
JAB said:
I personally am glad that he exposed these programs, as I believe the programs are illegal.
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What do you know about the programs? Most of the PPTs seen online contained markings that its compromise would cause exceptionally grave damage to national security.
 
JAB said:
I can only go off of the open source media. From what I can see the guardian has a large amount of data that the screened before release. The guardian and Snowden claimed that he had a lot more data, that has been heavily encrypted/secured. My digging around doesn't show any claims that snowden released data to anyone other than the guardian, China and Russia included.

Now I get what you are alluding to, and agree that it is very possible. But haven't seen any reports that support that any of it actually has happend.

Not to say those reports are not.out there, I just haven't seen them.
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I agree the Russian/China thing is just allegations. Well ignoring each countries history for espionage, how hard is it for either country to say to him give us a copy of everything or we hand you over to the FBI. Putin would love to stick his finger in America's eye but the guy is former KGB, does anyone seriously believe he let Snowden into his country without getting that information?

Snowden obviously leaked to Greenwald but Snowden also leaked his documents to Barton Gellman from the Washington Post but Barton has gotten away from leaking documents after the Prism story. Then Greenwald's husband was detained in the UK when it was assumed that he mulled classified documents to Germany's Laura Poitras, who is a film maker.

I believe Putin will eventually hand over Snowden, I'm not sure if he will make a deal with Obama. It wouldn't surprise me if Putin hands over Snowden after the 2016 election in a similar way as the Iranian's released the hostages after Reagan was sworn in.
 
lindy said:
What do you know about the programs? Most of the PPTs seen online contained markings that its compromise would cause exceptionally grave damage to national security.
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No I don't know anything about the programs outside of whats been reported. I am not implying that the release of the data is not costly, and or setting it back, making things difficult, etc. I just have doubts that the entire intel community is ruined and or decades behind b/c of what Snowden leaked.

As for what was/is taking place domestically, I think it should be destroyed, as it is illegal and unconstitutional. I could careless what or who we spy on OCONUS.

I don't feel my rights to privacy should be violated b/c some geek is trying to track a suspected terrorist. And with everything else, once programs like this are common, they are used for other reasons, and I really do not think that is okay, at all.

The idea that we should find a "balance" to maintaining privacy and having security, is simply stupid IMO. No where in the constitution does it say my rights can be violated by the government, so that they can protect me, from the boogie man of the decade. I value my rights, and I think if I have to face a bad boogie man, in order to keep my rights, then it is well worth it. For the rest of the population who think its okay to violate my rights, so they can live in a false state of security, well they can take that shit somewheres else, as the constitution is not there to only protect the masses, but also the little guy.

Sorry for the rant.
 
What worries me about this situation, as if there isn't enough already, is future applications.

So they are mining this ton of data. Let's say, for a moment, that we believe that the NSA is not doing anything with our data right now. I am thinking that the powers that be within the NSA are working on future applications where who knows what additional data will be gathered, and with any data that they already have in storage, how it could be analyzed in new and different ways in the future.

Let's also imagine for a moment that our politicians are well meaning and are not power grabbing buffoons. I think that there is a real possibility that the pols charged with signing off on this stuff cannot even comprehend what the NSA is telling them they want to do. I think the technicality of the process and what metadata actually is, is so over their heads and they think they understand and "get" it, but they really don't. But the officials at the NSA make it sound really good, helpful, and sexy that the pols say, "yes, we need to do this." We are on a very slippery slope.
 
I wouldn't hold my breath hoping the current courts will over turn these laws. The Scotus threw out a challenge to the 2008 FISA Act amendment on warrantless wire tapping because the parties didn't have standing in the case. Meaning if you can't prove the government used warrantless wire taps against you can't challenge the law. So who will ever be able to challenge the law?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/26/us-usa-court-surveillance-idUSBRE91P0JS20130226

The only real solution is congress to revoke the powers it gave the executive branch. Their has been a few people attempting to change the current situation but there certainly isn't enough support out there to get anything passed.
 
I really can't believe that there is any support for this kind of data collection stuff. No warrant, no reason to believe you did anything wrong, just going to capture it and hold it until they need it/use it. That's no different than taking your mail, reading it, making a copy and holding on to it.

And people are okay with that?
 
JAB said:
I really can't believe that there is any support for this kind of data collection stuff. No warrant, no reason to believe you did anything wrong, just going to capture it and hold it until they need it/use it. That's no different than taking your mail, reading it, making a copy and holding on to it.

And people are okay with that?
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Now, JAB, you shouldn't be so upset if you have nothing to hide...:(:wall::thumbsdown:
 
Not going to hate that, but damn. I guess privacy is only important if you have something to hide. How much your bills are, what kind medical ailments you might have, private pictures and any other thing you may hold close, that you may not want some geek in the NSA looking at. But as long as its legal, and I am not hiding any terror plots, I shouldnt worry about it...

I am disgusted that more NSA employees / contractors have not come forward. I guess that paycheck and clearance is more important than obeying that oath...
 
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You know I was kidding, right? The potential monitoring of emails/phone calls equates to having your home bugged by the govt, having them opening your mail, invading your bedroom, etc. I think people are outraged, but not as many as I would expect are being vocal about it. As a society, we are so complacent it is scary.
 
JAB said:
It's my understanding that many lawsuits have yet to be rulled on, and that the only thing upheld was the need for a warrant to tap phones, unless an emergency situation? I don't think the data mining has even been addressed yet, has it?
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FISC apparently gave the go ahead, no?
 
JHD said:
You know I was kidding, right? The potential monitoring of emails/phone calls equates to having your home bugged by the govt, having them opening your mail, invading your bedroom, etc. I think people are outraged, but not as many as I would expect are being vocal about it. As a society, we are so complacent it is scary.
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Blackmail to be used against you at the appropriate time.

Big Brother is watching, we only need monitors in the house now.
 
JAB said:
I really can't believe that there is any support for this kind of data collection stuff. No warrant, no reason to believe you did anything wrong, just going to capture it and hold it until they need it/use it. That's no different than taking your mail, reading it, making a copy and holding on to it.

And people are okay with that?
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Actually, it would be like seeing a letter with the address on it and copying that information.
 

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