Really struggling with what to think of the NSA/phone story

[CQB]

I've been following this issue for the duration and its been an interesting discussion. It's been going on for years if the EU Report on Echelon is anything to go by, Google it as its freely available. Privacy. There is an expectation of it, but not, as most leave the last bit out, if you are involved in criminal activity. So are we all involved in criminal activity now? The answer is no I would imagine for everyone here, but what if shit comes up trumps? A case can be built with the information the alphabets can get, dig? Anyone been to Utah lately? If any government one fine day said, "ok folks we are going to require every one of you to have a personal tracking device." Can you imagine the shitstorm? Well it's happened, we gave up without a fight, not even a fucking whimper.
Your average guy is toast when it comes to this, but there are measures you can take if you want to.

 

[compforce]

I've been following this issue for the duration and its been an interesting discussion. It's been going on for years if the EU Report on Echelon is anything to go by, Google it as its freely available. Privacy. There is an expectation of it, but not, as most leave the last bit out, if you are involved in criminal activity. So are we all involved in criminal activity now? The answer is no I would imagine for everyone here, but what if shit comes up trumps? A case can be built with the information the alphabets can get, dig? Anyone been to Utah lately? If any government one fine day said, "ok folks we are going to require every one of you to have a personal tracking device." Can you imagine the shitstorm? Well it's happened, we gave up without a fight, not even a fucking whimper.
Your average guy is toast when it comes to this, but there are measures you can take if you want to.

And then there was this...

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#axzz2ixo1QGj0

Let's track cars everywhere they go to "tax" them, never mind that they have GPS locators, that's for added verification (where's the tin hat smiley?)

 

[Marine0311]

I don't agree with the U.S gov spying on both U.S citizens minding their own business and spying on friendly countries. Our stock has sunk so low.

 

[Red Flag 1]

I've been following this issue for the duration and its been an interesting discussion. It's been going on for years if the EU Report on Echelon is anything to go by, Google it as its freely available. Privacy. There is an expectation of it, but not, as most leave the last bit out, if you are involved in criminal activity. So are we all involved in criminal activity now? The answer is no I would imagine for everyone here, but what if shit comes up trumps? A case can be built with the information the alphabets can get, dig? Anyone been to Utah lately? If any government one fine day said, "ok folks we are going to require every one of you to have a personal tracking device." Can you imagine the shitstorm? Well it's happened, we gave up without a fight, not even a fucking whimper.
Your average guy is toast when it comes to this, but there are measures you can take if you want to.

Like a cell phone or something :wall:.

 

[DA SWO]

I don't agree with the U.S gov spying on both U.S citizens minding their own business and spying on friendly countries. Our stock has sunk so low.

Those friendly countries spy on us daily, industrial espionage.

Those countries also have employees who sell/give military data to third parties (Turkey for example), finding a hole lets us plug it.

Too fucking bad.

 

[CQB]

And then there was this...

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#axzz2ixo1QGj0

Let's track cars everywhere they go to "tax" them, never mind that they have GPS locators, that's for added verification (where's the tin hat smiley?)

A little off topic but I'm seeing an insurance and lawyer bonanza here. Previously noted was the capability of examining crash data, let alone the feature creep you identify

 

[RetPara]

The automotive black b0x stuff is a very strong candidate to be split out of this thread into it's own.

I'm (for all practical purposes) no longer an active member of the intell community. The damage that Snowden has done to foreign collection efforts is going to take decades to repair. The opposing intelligence services, those of the non-committed countries have got to be be laughing their ass off at the US Intell Community now. Those that we have had sharing relationships with for decades will probably be closing & locking the door to us for some time in the future.

 

[DA SWO]

The automotive black b0x stuff is a very strong candidate to be split out of this thread into it's own.

I'm (for all practical purposes) no longer an active member of the intell community. The damage that Snowden has done to foreign collection efforts is going to take decades to repair. The opposing intelligence services, those of the non-committed countries have got to be be laughing their ass off at the US Intell Community now. Those that we have had sharing relationships with for decades will probably be closing & locking the door to us for some time in the future.

Same thing (loss of data sharing) happened when Carter was President, HUMINT is a large part of the process, and (most) countries try to protect the data. There was a story about Turkey giving Iran source info, so tapping cell-phones would (I hope) allow us to warn compromised sources.

Snowden screwed us over, and I hope he enjoys exile. I also hope they audit his folks for the next 20 years.

 

[TLDR20]

I think the new stuff about us spying on allies is funny. Of course we are spying on them, they would spy on us just the same if they had the capability. It cracks me up how Merkel bitches about it, because I doubt the Germans are spying on anyone.

 

[JHD]

We should absolutely be spying on those outside the US borders, but we shouldn't let them find out about it...spying on domestic citizens within our borders though, no no no, not without a warrant.

As to Snowden, I am ambivalent about his punishment. In the telling, he let regular everyday citizens know what it's government was doing to them without their knowledge. Others have tried to raise it within the proper chain of command and were frozen out and shut down, and branded liars. Yes, he broke the law, but I don't think he committed the acts of a traitor. JMOO.

 

[DA SWO]

We should absolutely be spying on those outside the US borders, but we shouldn't let them find out about it...spying on domestic citizens within our borders though, no no no, not without a warrant.

As to Snowden, I am ambivalent about his punishment. In the telling, he let regular everyday citizens know what it's government was doing to them without their knowledge. Others have tried to raise it within the proper chain of command and were frozen out and shut down, and branded liars. Yes, he broke the law, but I don't think he committed the acts of a traitor. JMOO.

I would agree with you, had he stopped there. He found most of his data by accident; his plan was to steal as much as he could, sell it, live off his profits.

Hope he enjoys Russia(?).

 

[JHD]

I would agree with you, had he stopped there. He found most of his data by accident; his plan was to steal as much as he could, sell it, live off his profits.

Hope he enjoys Russia(?).

But has he profited from it? It doesn't seem so. He hasn't sold his life story yet, and there seems to have been sufficient time for a book and movie deal to happen. He also hasn't been granting interviews or staying (or trying to stay) in the spotlight.

I am thinking he might have also headed to China/Russia, as he knew his choices of where to flee would be limited. I also think if he had this grand plan to make money from it, he would have been better organized with an exit plan. But again, JMOO.

 

[DA SWO]

But has he profited from it? It doesn't seem so. He hasn't sold his life story yet, and there seems to have been sufficient time for a book and movie deal to happen. He also hasn't been granting interviews or staying (or trying to stay) in the spotlight.

I am thinking he might have also headed to China/Russia, as he knew his choices of where to flee would be limited. I also think if he had this grand plan to make money from it, he would have been better organized with an exit plan. But again, JMOO.

IIRC his grand plan was to seek asylum in Iceland, things went to fast for him to get there.

How can you say he hasn't profited? Do you think he gave the intel to China and Russia for free?

 

[JHD]

IIRC his grand plan was to seek asylum in Iceland, things went to fast for him to get there.

How can you say he hasn't profited? Do you think he gave the intel to China and Russia for free?

Now, yes, maybe he is lying, but he is insisting that he has not provided material to them. Given that China and Russia didn't really want to allow him to stay in their respective countries, I will cautiously say that maybe I believe him. Should our country be on guard in the event he did share? Absolutely, but we are already supposed to be in protective mode anyway.

And, Maybe I am wrong, but I am guessing that you are assuming he gave our info away (not illogical, by any means) but don't know for sure anymore than the rest of us do. And I am sure that if you did know for certain, you couldn't say anyway. Is there anything you can point to to say that he definitively shared top secret info with China/Russia that has been brought to light? I am asking because I have honestly not seen anything that indicates that he did. I also think the fact that he shared his story with the media to out the actions of the US Govt adds to his credibility.

Time will tell.

 

[CQB]

We should absolutely be spying on those outside the US borders, but we shouldn't let them find out about it...spying on domestic citizens within our borders though, no no no, not without a warrant.

As to Snowden, I am ambivalent about his punishment. In the telling, he let regular everyday citizens know what it's government was doing to them without their knowledge. Others have tried to raise it within the proper chain of command and were frozen out and shut down, and branded liars. Yes, he broke the law, but I don't think he committed the acts of a traitor. JMOO.

I was going to post similar. Its a given that, as noted above, all nations watch each other and it's expected I guess, but an entire population? The guy has been clever and better behaved than a couple of other notable bumbling idiots.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/w...cret-files-to-russia.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Salt USMC]

He definitely did this leak better than Manning did.

 

[JHD]

He definitely did this leak better than Manning did.

I definitely consider Manning a traitor.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I think the overall point is not that what he did was in his view morally right or wrong, but more so that he knew it was illegal and did it anyway. I personally am glad that he exposed these programs, as I believe the programs are illegal. There is a reason for the constitution, and this government is not IMO adhering to it.

However, I do not think Snowden went about it the right way, and do think the reactions would have been different if he had brought this stuff public here in the USA and took the very public approach here in the states. Although I cannot fault him for his wanting to not be tossed into a Max security prison with the key tossed away.

Manning IMHO, is a very different subject, and he is a traitor, and although Snowden is a traitor to this government as well, I think their actions and reasons were very different.

Snowden has a massive amount of data, that will hurt this country on all levels, the US gov, has admitted that, however, he was very careful of what he released. Manning, simply data-mined and released in mass, without caring who or how it would effect people/operations.

 

[Scotth]

I'm not sure Snowden did what he did for the profit motive. I think he is a true believer in what he did and thinks of himself as a common man super hero. The problem is everything after the first story he leaked had nothing to do with protecting American. Greenwald he is all about getting paid.

Germany's indignation is funny as hell. They have a top10 intelligence agency and I'm sure they don't spy on anyone in Europe or the US.

 

[Scotth]

however, he was very careful of what he released.

Snowden isn't careful in what he released. He gave copies of all the documents to multiple reports who have spread the data out even further, not to mention we have no idea if that information was compromised by China and now Russia. They aren't dumping the data in mass because that would be the end of the story. They want the trickle trickle of data to keep the story alive longer. They release data related to who ever the US Government might be dealing with in the near future.