Really struggling with what to think of the NSA/phone story

....When you break a promise not to talk about something, you should expect a punishment, and face it. I feel like he was the kid who ran from his parents after doing something wrong because he didn't want to get spanked (if he got punished at all)
True enough about braking promises, but this sort of stuff isn't something that can be "pushed up the channels".

As far as "a kid who ran from his parents", I think you may want to look at Snowden's work history a little closer. Whomever or whatever he is, there would seem to be a whole lot more going on here than any typical "disgruntled kid".

One of the more interesting things to me about this event is that Snowden really hasn't exposed a whole lot information that wasn't previously known or available in the public domain, making his revelations more a political embarrassment rather than any real breach in national security. Truth be said, Snowden hasn't released a lot of the specifics which I assume he would naturally be knowledgeable of. So all the various "vestal virgin" politicos who are now publicly declaring their aghast at these revelations are either completely disingenuous or ignorant fools. My bet is predominantly on the later.
 
"more a political embarrassment rather than any real breach in national security"

Negative.....he took classified documents from a U.S. Intelligence agency and released them. That is not a political embarrassment, it against the law.


18 USC § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material
18 U.S.C. § 798 : US Code - Section 798: Disclosure of classified information

Just to name a couple of things....
 
So the guy who claims not to be a spy has fled Hong Kong via Russia for Ecuador with the aid of Wikileaks.

What happened to the good old days of fighting for what you believe in rather than running off to exile? "Give me liberty or give me safe conduct to a third party with no extradition treaty?"

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/politics/nsa-leaks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Snowden "left Hong Kong legally" and is headed to Ecuador "via a safe route for the purposes of asylum," WikiLeaks said in a statement issued Sunday afternoon. He is accompanied by diplomats and lawyers for WikiLeaks, including former Spanish judge Baltasar Garzon, according to a statement from the organization.
 
I'll be honest, the government is overreaching its bounds with its constant intrusions into our daily lives and it's attempts to say "its fine, we should be doing this" are insulting.

This guy can't be asked questions if he gets locked up, to find out the full extent of what the fuck's going on.

@Freefalling Unless you're willing to start shooting now, this is a solo fight for this man and as such, he's actually doing the right thing. Unless this shit gets highlighted then the american people will never know exactly how far our fantastic government has gone with regards to invasions into privacy and violations of our fucking rights.

I have the ass that shit like this is occuring within our boundarys. I have the ass that people are sheepish and that encryption is such a strange thing for people to use that if you're using it, you're wrong. It's putting an envelope on a goddamn letter.
 
@Ranger Psych , Yeah but...(and this is the back and forth I struggle with) are we to believe that we cannot believe anything out government is telling us? "where" is the line? If we have the technology to collect all of this data, and then when we capture a bad guy, see if we can pattern just who he (or she) has been talking to, shouldn't we? It is not like anyone is sitting there listening to me talk about the latest episode of NCIS with my wife, although I accept the fact that they have the ability to do so . . . all that aside: to the best of my knowledge, the government was not doing anything illegal, they are not even trying to deny it; which in my book makes the little prick hiding out in the Russian airport a traitor; not a whistleblower as he may fantasize .
 
Snowden's a huge fucking tool. The scandal surrounding the NSA is a whole other matter and is definitely a bit more complex, but I think it's safe to assume that Snowden and the liberal media he went to have overblown the reality of such measures.

So the guy who claims not to be a spy has fled Hong Kong via Russia for Ecuador with the aid of Wikileaks.

What happened to the good old days of fighting for what you believe in rather than running off to exile? "Give me liberty or give me safe conduct to a third party with no extradition treaty?"

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/politics/nsa-leaks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I'm tired of Ecuador and their bullshit. They've been holding Assange in their embassy in London for ages now. There's a point where a country just becomes a traitor/criminal safehaven, and where we should just say, 'We're coming to get what's ours by force, since you flaunt legalities. We wouldn't recommend trying to stop us'. Anyway, I think The Telegraph is shaping up to be my favourite British news source. Far better than the liberal BBC for political stuff.

What a dizzying 24 hours Edward Snowden has had. After fleeing Hong Kong (the place he first fled to), he was revealed to be in the airspace above Russia with a WikiLeaks advisor (this woman) headed to Moscow. Now Snowden has requested asylum in Ecuador, according to that country's foreign minister.

WikiLeaks describes Snowden’s final destination as “a democratic country” and, yes, Ecuador basically is (more or less). But it just recently passed a bill restraining press freedom that really ought not to appeal to a whistle-blower. According to Human Rights Watch, the bill has three worrying components. A) It prohibits so-called “media lynching”, and allows the state to compel the guilty to say sorry and face legal proceedings. B) It claims to encourage the press to self-regulate but actually empowers the government to impose sanctions on wrong-doers. C) Most importantly, the bill asserts that it is a crime for a journalist to undermine “the security of the State”. Just like Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden are accused of doing. So Snowden, the whistle-blower, is relocating to a country that is turning against the culture of whistle-blowing. Of course, it's also a country that's given refuge (in its London embassy) to Julian Assange – himself fleeing allegations of rape.

I’m afraid that Snowden’s tour of authoritarian regimes – including China (yes, Edward, Hong Kong is in China) and Russia – rather undermines his reputation as a champion of individual liberty. He will argue that he had no choice, and we might infer that he reasonably bargained that existential enemies of the US are the places most likely to protect him against extradition. But, ultimately, free speech is a black and white thing that doesn’t lend itself to compromise. Snowden simply can’t pitch himself as an enemy of big government while seeking refuge in countries that have governments bigger than God.

It’s a tragedy that Snowden's made this mistake because what he had to reveal about the US security state was very troubling. But while the message remains important, the messenger has been exposed as unworthy of it. Snowden’s totalitarian tour is an embarrassment to his cause.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...om-his-tyranny-tour-has-undermined-his-cause/
 
Snowden's a huge fucking tool. The scandal surrounding the NSA is a whole other matter and is definitely a bit more complex, but I think it's safe to assume that Snowden and the liberal media he went to have overblown the reality of such measures.

Agreed. When Sean Hannity has Karl Rove on his show and they both agree that the level of oversight is sufficient, it becomes a non-issue. (Meaning two right wingers agreeing that the left wing government is good to go on the issue). Personally, I think most of the 0riginal "whistle blowing" has been blown out of proportion, but when Snowden started releasing specifics to the media like the British wire tapping G8 and the US trying to hack Chinese systems, he crossed the line and became a traitor.
 
@Ranger Psych , Yeah but...(and this is the back and forth I struggle with) are we to believe that we cannot believe anything out government is telling us? "where" is the line? If we have the technology to collect all of this data, and then when we capture a bad guy, see if we can pattern just who he (or she) has been talking to, shouldn't we? It is not like anyone is sitting there listening to me talk about the latest episode of NCIS with my wife, although I accept the fact that they have the ability to do so . . . all that aside: to the best of my knowledge, the government was not doing anything illegal, they are not even trying to deny it; which in my book makes the little prick hiding out in the Russian airport a traitor; not a whistleblower as he may fantasize .

I've spent enough time as a military mushroom to not believe 90% of what the government says. Case in point, ready.gov and FEMA sites used to specifically recommend having a months worth of supplies and even had a generic plan to help people build up to self sufficiency for a >30 day time frame. Now? people that do that are being vilified in the public eye as though being able to take care of yourself is a mortal sin versus having to wait for Uncle Sam to save your ass.

You're going off of having probable cause to be able to obtain a warrant for US citizen surviellance and information acquisition. The government is just doing it as a matter of business with unprescidented levels of LACK of checks and balances. If the cops want to search your home, tap your lines, etc.. they need a warrant. The federal government is larger and therefore LESS reliable and trustworthy than your local police department conducting an investigation because they honestly rarely if ever have an actual stake in anything OTHER than federal authority. At least the local police live in the area and are trying to better their community, for all the mistakes that are made... and when they are, that local community finds out and it gets addressed.. not hidden like all the problem children in the military and federal government.

Case in point, shitbag SFC's that simply get reassigned "where they can do less damage". The federal government does exactly that in the VA, Social Security, and every other department they operate. People who fuck up aren't fired, unlike local and even county governments.
 
I keep hearing some people talking about how he had the courage and moral compass to be a whistleblower... you'd think with all of us with our clearances that there would be more people coming out. I wouldn't put it pass anyone to use this as a distraction from some of the real overreaching actions of the government.. ie.. IRS.
 
Did revealing domestic programs hurt the country?
Maybe, maybe not; but domestic spying was supposed to have strict rules (see Church Commission).

Did revealing OCONUS operations hurt us, yes. That is the reason he needs to be punished. Let him go to Ecquador, hope he learns to speak Spanish, as I suspect his expat life won't be glamerous (he'll need a funding source to support himself).

Let's see what Congress does. Will there be another "Churh Commission", or will those in power (stupidly) accept domestic spying and the enevitable loss of freedoms?

They should strip his US Citizenship, and let him declare his loyalty to another country. I also find it amusing that this champion of human rights is being aided by China, Russia, Wikileaks, and Ecquador, all known human rights abusers.
 
I'm not gonna wade into the argument about this guy, just to say I don't think he's a traitor and that him revealing all this was the right thing to do. What I have mainly to say on this is, quite honestly I'm surprised at the, what is basically delayed outrage by all this cause for YEARS those of us that keep up with national security/current events/foreign affairs/history have known that this was happening. Hell I remember reading about it a long time ago, and actually posting a thread about this same topic a few years back. I swear if people would spend even 30 min a day on crap other than if they should hate King James for winning another NBA title or if Lindsey Lohan is going back to jail we'd have a better informed and more focused society that would not need men like Snowden to leak info like this.
 
I'll be honest, the government is overreaching its bounds with its constant intrusions into our daily lives and it's attempts to say "its fine, we should be doing this" are insulting.

This guy can't be asked questions if he gets locked up, to find out the full extent of what the fuck's going on.

@Freefalling Unless you're willing to start shooting now, this is a solo fight for this man and as such, he's actually doing the right thing. Unless this shit gets highlighted then the american people will never know exactly how far our fantastic government has gone with regards to invasions into privacy and violations of our fucking rights.

I have the ass that shit like this is occuring within our boundarys. I have the ass that people are sheepish and that encryption is such a strange thing for people to use that if you're using it, you're wrong. It's putting an envelope on a goddamn letter.

I think you're confusing this issue with the IRS scandal. The "privacy" you're talking about is the same as mailing a letter via snail mail. The sender & receiver are out in plain view for the Post Office to see.

IF, on the other hand, you take a letter and personally hand it to the reciever, THEN you definitely have a privacy issue.

If the shithead Snowden had issue with the classified program, he should have gone to the IG, his congressman (or a liberal congressman), etc. Committing a series of felonies and causing exceptional grave damage to national security ain't really the best COAs.
 
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Because going to IG and Congress gets things taken care of, gets the truth out there and exposes corruption? Right!

Based on our laws, dude is in the wrong. Based on taking the heat to tell the American people how fucked up our current government really is. I think he did the right thing and has a pair iron nuts. I don't know many people with that level of clearance, that are willing toss their career in the trash can and become a fugitive of the USA, in order to tell the American people what is actually going on.
 
Snowden just told a Hong Kong paper that he took the job with the intent of stealing documents. The kid will have his 15 minutes of fame but he will spend a substantial amount of the remainder of his life in a super max.

The program was legal whether we like it or not and I highly doubt it will change. The biggest congressional complainers haven't done a dam thing to change the program. Rand said he was going to take the program to court and hasn't. Nobody has introduced a single bill from either party, including Wyden, to change the Patriot act and shutdown this program as much as some have preen about talking tough. The only thing congress is doing is positioning them selves to avoid the splash from the fallout.

The courts have spoken on the issue so the only other option is for Congress to reign in the Executive Branch's power. Congress was the original cause of the problem and they don't look too interested in cleaning up their mess.
 
I initially thought there might have been an element to this guy of "moral compass", too... but now that I've seen what other things he put out there, I am sure of one thing. This guy is working from weakness and cowardice now, not from morality or integrity.

If all he had revealed had been some redacted supporting documentation pointing to the bloated, out of control domestic activity, then he could arguably be viewed as the moral compass guy without somewhat damaging ongoing ops/ capabilities. He'd still be breaking the law but he'd have demonstrated some attempt at not harming the interests of the United States.

As much as I make it known that I hate the overgrown domestic security apparatus we have erected around us since 9/11- the mother of all excuses for intrusive unconstitutional behavior- Snowden is not going to be the "champion" for domestic privacy concerns. He's just not the guy.

Regarding his itinerary; not even mildly surprising. Regarding his willful disclosure of some additional OCONUS alleged activities, my personal take on that behavior is he may not have intended to continue to pump this stuff out, but then out of desperation and to compel some C-list country to give him harbor, he decided to throw more stuff out there in the hopes of making someone interested. And that makes him a traitor and something real close to a mole in my view.
 
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