The self identity thread.

Well if you think about it, it kinda did. This is what, 5 months after Target changed or fortified their policy? They have thousands of stores and millions of customers. 1 person out of millions of possible interactions. Shit there have been a boatload mass shootings since then. There have been more shark attacks and lightning strikes since then. A bunch of people have won the lottery, all those things are still more likely than a peeping tom transgender person.

I agree in that it is, what, like 1 in a million. But here's my issue: at first a lot of people said this wouldn't happen; the proponents said those who thought it would (happen) were just being paranoid bigots. Now that it has, the same people are moving the target: well, it happened, but only once in a billion. And when it happens again, the target will move again.
 
The person will be charged with the appropriate crime.

This argument is no different than gun control advocates saying that since one concealed weapons carrier broke the law, then others are likely to break the law as well. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
 
I can argue with @TLDR20 since he seems reasonably intelligent to me (he has, after all, matriculated at one of alma maters). But my argument with the lesser-cerebral liberals is their use of the true Scotsman fallacy, which is what they have used to support their case. I will concede both sides will cherry-pick an argument to substantiate their position.
 
I can argue with @TLDR20 since he seems reasonably intelligent to me (he has, after all, matriculated at one of alma maters). But my argument with the lesser-cerebral liberals is their use of the true Scotsman fallacy, which is what they have used to support their case. I will concede both sides will cherry-pick an argument to substantiate their position.

I don't think I moved the goalpost. My original and still very real argument is that laws preventing people from using the bathrooms of their gender do not prevent this crime. It is illegal to peep on people. It still is illegal to do so in Target. Allowing real trans people to use a bathroom or a changing room doesn't change the fact that it is still illegal to peep at people.

This person broke the hell out of a law. Same as if she would have walked in their dressed as a man, identifying as a man. Peeping on people is illegal.
 
I don't think I moved the goalpost. My original and still very real argument is that laws preventing people from using the bathrooms of their gender do not prevent this crime. It is illegal to peep on people. It still is illegal to do so in Target. Allowing real trans people to use a bathroom or a changing room doesn't change the fact that it is still illegal to peep at people.

This person broke the hell out of a law. Same as if she would have walked in their dressed as a man, identifying as a man. Peeping on people is illegal.

No, I don't necessarily think you moved the target. I think it is a tactic of the left to use the true Scotsman fallacy with an argument like this. You seem to back up your arguments pretty cogently and factually, even if I disagree with the premises.
 
I will say this about the math requirement:

My school has both Music Humanities and Art Humanities as required classes. No required math but I took it anyway. I've gotten laid by talking about Vivaldi. Peter Bruegel has also gotten me laid. You know what hasn't gotten me laid? Derivatives.
You've been dating the wrong girls.
 
I will say this about the math requirement:

My school has both Music Humanities and Art Humanities as required classes. No required math but I took it anyway. I've gotten laid by talking about Vivaldi. Peter Bruegel has also gotten me laid. You know what hasn't gotten me laid? Derivatives.

Dang, I would have guessed your sense of humor......O_o
 
I hear that @lindy is a fan of pegging

archer-season-5.jpg
 
This thread kind of got away from the main point here at the end, but I read an article on The American Conservative yesterday concerning the importance of the "identity crisis" and culture wars that I thought really drove home the point of why this issue is of such importance even though we have more "important problems" terrorism, race problems, and economic problems. I was definitely part of the "Who Cares?" party, but reading this article made me see this problem in a different light. This is the best part of the article in my view. The beginning and end paragraphs are the most important by my reading if you don't want to read the whole thing.

Believe me, a lot of us notice. Ordinary people who have never had a thought about theory in their lives see the world they took as normal, as stable, as comprehensible, disappearing in front of their eyes, driven by forces they cannot understand, much less control. Some of the more thoughtful conservatives see the deeper problems at issue. Here’s theologian Carl Trueman on the new mandated LGBT history standards in California schools:

Yuval Levin has written recently that the ethic of modern America is that of expressive individualism. Herein lies the problem: Taken absolutely, expressive individualism has no specific content and thus is subject to those identities which society considers authentic and to which it has thus granted legitimacy. But who decides which identities are authentic? Have you ever wondered why some minorities make it and others do not? Why, say, LGBTQers have pride of place on the California curriculum but foot fetishists, redheads, and people with allergies to latex do not? It is because the latter currently lack the cultural cachet that comes with the imprimatur of the entertainment industry, with the public sympathy arising from publicized marginalization and victimhood, and with the influence of organized lobby groups.

Thus, the California curriculum is a symptomatic codification of the aesthetic preferences of the current political culture. As such, it raises question far beyond whether schools rather than parents should teach children sexual morality. For years, the in-house question for historians has been whether history can survive as a discipline despite the proliferation of micro-narratives and the collapse of the possibility of grand theory. But now that academic question has more immediate real-world consequences: Can the nation state, or maybe society in general in the democratic form with which we are familiar, survive in anything like its current shape, when history—which is vital to the nation-state’s legitimation—is fracturing into the myriad identities to which expressive individualism is ultimately vulnerable? When you add to this the other forces militating against social unity—immigration, globalization, etc.—the institutions and processes built on a deep sense of social unity and cohesion look profoundly vulnerable.

The action of the State of California may well be driven by the trendy politics of the day, but it represents a phenomenon of comprehensive social and political importance, not just the ascendancy of a particular political stance. The new curriculum represents the confusion that lies at the very heart of modern Western identity; it is far more significant than merely putting the name of Harvey Milk into the minds of the young. It is part of an ongoing and perhaps largely unwitting challenge to what it means to be human, and thus to the way the world is currently organized. But, as George Orwell once commented, “So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” Indeed it is. And we may all be about to be burned.

It’s about identity. And it goes even deeper than that, as Trueman explains in a subsequent post:

The Civil Rights movement was built on the egalitarian assumption that African Americans shared with those of European ancestry a common humanity which transcended and ultimately undermined racial categories; by contrast, LGBTQ politics assumes that self-determined individual sexual identity trumps everything. It is thus built not on the foundation of a common humanity but on the priority of the individual’s will.

This is not a stance unique to LGBTQ activists. In fact, it is one of the major assumptions in the contemporary political climate. Much of modern politics—right and left—operates with an impoverished, solipsistic definition of selfhood. The result is that we have lost the classic liberal balance between the constraints rooted in the concept of a shared humanity and the rights of the individual. The late modern self would seem to be understood primarily as a self-determining agent whose desires are curbed only by the principle of consent when brought into relationship with the desires of another self-determining agent.

The idea here is that there is no such thing as a shared human nature, that human beings are defined not by nature, but by their own wills. More:

This demolition of the concept of human nature started centuries ago and is now firmly ensconced in art, in literature, in social and material relations, and in legal and political institutions and the standard news and entertainment media narratives. It thus has tremendous momentum. Anyone wishing to defend the unborn or traditional marriage has a much greater task on their hands than that faced by those who oppose them on these issues.

Assuming that he is a conservative, the man sitting across from me in the coffee shop where I’m writing this post probably wouldn’t be able to discuss the culture war as a fight over human nature itself. But it is, and however inarticulate he may be, even in explaining this to himself, he dimly senses that this is what is happening.
 
This thread kind of got away from the main point here at the end, but I read an article on The American Conservative yesterday concerning the importance of the "identity crisis" and culture wars that I thought really drove home the point of why this issue is of such importance even though we have more "important problems" terrorism, race problems, and economic problems. I was definitely part of the "Who Cares?" party, but reading this article made me see this problem in a different light. This is the best part of the article in my view. The beginning and end paragraphs are the most important by my reading if you don't want to read the whole thing.


Citations and ascribing the journal are important here... always cite a link clearly especially if it is to a scholarly journal. Why is this the best part of the article? Why is this guy an expert on human nature and identity?

You know all this from your studies... don't get lazy here... just sayin.
 
My bad, sir. It's just a conservative blog article, nothing really scholarly so I didn't think it need extensive citing. I just thought it was a thought-provoking piece on why these subjects actually matter. It changed my judgment from "Who cares?" to "Let's look at this a little deeper".

The article is long and he really goes around Laura's house to get to his point, but so I quoted the part that I thought made his point best to save time. Also, he's not an expert just a journalist, but he's been a writer for some time according to his bio.

Rod Dreher is a senior editor at The American Conservative. He has written and edited for the New York Post, The Dallas Morning News, National Review, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, the Washington Times, and the Baton Rouge Advocate. Rod’s commentary has been published in The Wall Street Journal, Commentary, the Weekly Standard, Beliefnet, and Real Simple, among other publications, and he has appeared on NPR, ABC News, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and the BBC. He lives in St. Francisville, Louisiana, with his wife Julie and their three children. He has also written two books, The Little Way of Ruthie Leming and Crunchy Cons.

The article:
Dreher, Rod. "Peter Thiel Was Wrong". The American Conservative.
 
I am surprised that this has not received heavier media coverage-

U.S. Supreme Court blocks transgender bathroom choice for now

And these paragraphs from the story offers me even more surprise.

Justice Stephen Breyer, of the Supreme Court's liberal wing, joined with its most conservative members in temporarily siding with the school board.

Breyer wrote in a one-sentence explanation that he did so as a courtesy to preserve the status quo until the Supreme Court has a chance to consider the subject more fully.
 
I am surprised that this has not received heavier media coverage-

U.S. Supreme Court blocks transgender bathroom choice for now

And these paragraphs from the story offers me even more surprise.

Justice Stephen Breyer, of the Supreme Court's liberal wing, joined with its most conservative members in temporarily siding with the school board.

Breyer wrote in a one-sentence explanation that he did so as a courtesy to preserve the status quo until the Supreme Court has a chance to consider the subject more fully.

This is a stay order so that the Supreme court can decide whether it wants to hear the case at all. Makes sense to me.

I think the sleazy false impression that the Daily Mail is giving on this becomes clear with the inclusion of "Supreme Court rules..." in the headline. :rolleyes:
 
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