The self identity thread.

[TLDR20]

Interesting, I've got to admit my upbringing limits my abilities to accept things and my personal idea's of religion and theories of rationalization tend to lead me to the same areas of thought. Like I can accept someone for being homosexual, even though I think its wrong, and don't believe it should be forced upon society as normal or common. Example, I would accept my child was a homosexual, because I love them. I don't however agree that it should made something that's common or pushed upon them to feel that it is cool or right.

If that makes any sense at all.

I kinda base it on what environment I want my children to grow up in and what I want them to be exposed to as young kids. Not to shelter them completely as at some point they will be exposed and make their own decisions, but the idea of forced opinions vs personal opinion based on logic and beliefs.

That said my kids are not forced into religious beliefs, but are forced to conform to cultural normality and manners/customs.

So I have to assume you think that sexuality is a choice. Someone chooses to be a homosexual at some point. There are only social/psychological determinants, and no biological determinants?

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

So I have to assume you think that sexuality is a choice. Someone chooses to be a homosexual at some point. There are only social/psychological determinants, and no biological determinants?

I think there is plenty of evidence to support both, several who experimented because they hung with group who influenced it, but later changed. Some who just believe that's their sexuality and or attraction's, and some who do it simply as a measure of rebellion against normality's of either culture and or parental upbringing.

I've met and know all types, most of the one's I've meant were out in the open pushing it in peoples faces and later changed. But I do know one dude, a soldier, who was very closed in about it, you'd never know it, and I didn't for many years. When I finally found out and talked him about it, it boiled down to he had been with one girl, hated it and was always attracted to men. I don't question him on it an accept that that is who he is. I still don't think it's right, but that is his choice. Now just because I accept him and consider him a friend, I wouldn't want him and his lover kissing in front of my kids and he is far to respectful of the issue to even do that in public much less in front of my kids.

 

[TLDR20]

I think there is plenty of evidence to support both, several who experimented because they hung with group who influenced it, but later changed. Some who just believe that's their sexuality and or attraction's, and some who do it simply as a measure of rebellion against normality's of either culture and or parental upbringing.

I've met and know all types, most of the one's I've meant were out in the open pushing it in peoples faces and later changed. But I do know one dude, a soldier, who was very closed in about it, you'd never know it, and I didn't for many years. When I finally found out and talked him about it, it boiled down to he had been with one girl, hated it and was always attracted to men. I don't question him on it an accept that that is who he is. I still don't think it's right, but that is his choice. Now just because I accept him and consider him a friend, I wouldn't want him and his lover kissing in front of my kids and he is far to respectful of the issue to even do that in public much less in front of my kids.

I asked if you think that homosexuality is a choice. You danced around that and didn't answer. The research that I have done seems pretty strong in that it is not. Sure there are social and psychological actors, as there are in any type of socially constructed thing like sexuality. But I do not think that it is just a choice.

I asked because if you think it is a choice it is very easy to consider it "wrong," or "bad," and to feel it is being "pushed in your face" if you feel someone is choosing to be a way. However if you think that it is the way someone is, like for instance being blonde, or straight, or black, then kissing the person they love in public is a normal, healthy sign of affection.

Here is a good summary of some of the thoughts on it. There are some academic articles linked to in that link. This is a summary not me saying this is evidence.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I asked if you think that homosexuality is a choice. You danced around that and didn't answer. The research that I have done seems pretty strong in that it is not. Sure there are social and psychological actors, as there are in any type of socially constructed thing like sexuality. But I do not think that it is just a choice.

I asked because if you think it is a choice it is very easy to consider it "wrong," or "bad," and to feel it is being "pushed in your face" if you feel someone is choosing to be a way. However if you think that it is the way someone is, like for instance being blonde, or straight, or black, then kissing the person they love in public is a normal, healthy sign of affection.

I think it is a choice, but also understand that some people are only attracted to the same sex and it's easier for them mentally to be a homosexual.

Where my "i think its wrong" comment comes from is the fact that it's unnatural to the biological nature of reproduction. Thus it's not what is intended, kinda like a grown man having sex with a little girl who has not fully developed in maturity. Morality says it's wrong because society says so through its laws, etc. However biologically, medically we know its unhealthy for grown men to have sex with little boys and girls, the same way we know it's unhealthy for grown men to have thing jammed into their rectum, or that we know that two men cannot reproduce offspring's, etc.

But to be 100% honest, yes I think you have to make decision to have sex with same or opposite sex. It's a choice, the same way making a decision to not have sex at all is a choice. Sexual attractions may not be as much of a choice.

 

[AWP]

the same way we know it's unhealthy for grown men to have thing jammed into their rectum,

I just want to springboard off your comment. I'm not saying you belong in the group I'm about to address, simply because I don't know, but I laugh my ass off at men who rail against taking it in the ass, but will have anal sex with a woman. An asshole's an asshole, what it is attached to doesn't change that. If a woman doing it is okay but a guy doing it isn't...might as well boycott Target by going to their stores.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

I just want to springboard off your comment. I'm not saying you belong in the group I'm about to address, simply because I don't know, but I laugh my ass off at men who rail against taking it in the ass, but will have anal sex with a woman. An asshole's an asshole, what it is attached to doesn't change that. If a woman doing it is okay but a guy doing it isn't...might as well boycott Target by going to their stores.

Yeah dude, I'm not in agreement with either a man or a woman doing that. I think it's actually disgusting but also know it can lead to several health issues.

 

[DocIllinois]

There is currently no scientific consensus on the exact reason an individual develops a particular sexual orientation.

For the scientifically minded, this means conclusive views on the subject are withheld for the moment because no one can yet responsibly give a well supported answer.


The patterns of attraction which determine sexual orientation may arise without any prior sexual experience, though, according to current scientific understanding.

For a better understanding of sexual orientation and homosexuality

 

[Ooh-Rah]

But to be 100% honest, yes I think you have to make decision to have sex with same or opposite sex. It's a choice, the same way making a decision to not have sex at all is a choice. Sexual attractions may not be as much of a choice.

I think you are saying that in the end, it is all about choices? Personally I disagree. My 17 year old nephew is gay. We all know it, he knows it, but has not acknowledged it yet. He does not want to be gay, he wants to bang girls and hang with dudes doing "dude" stuff. He's also a major homophobe - this has to be so difficult for him.

So how can I (and many other men) agree that being gay is not a choice (in most cases) yet still get uncomfortable with their displaying public affection?

As @TLDR20 says above:

However if you think that it is the way someone is, like for instance being blonde, or straight, or black, then kissing the person they love in public is a normal, healthy sign of affection.

Based on that quote, shouldn't we just accept two men holding hands or kissing in public as normal? I want to, I really do - I want to be a good uncle when my nephew eventually comes out, I want to be able to accept his partner as a member of the family and even attend their wedding if they choose to do that.

I really believe it comes down to the sex. I have long believed that many guys problem with homosexuality is more to do with the sex than anything else. Example, I have a very good friend who is gay. We do all kinds of guy stuff together, including talking about some of his/our relationship challenges. Sometimes he has his partner with him and when they hold hands or kiss, it really bugs me. I don't want it to, but it does.

On the other hand, one of my sister's best friends is a lesbian and when she and her current girl friend hold hands or kiss in public, I cannot help but steal a glance and file that scene away for future use. Girl/girl sex is practically part of normal society now; it is an inside joke on TV shows (there were two plot points about it in Friends, and the guys were VERY accepting of those stories).

The same cannot be said for guy/guy sex. The idea of two dudes having sex the way they do, disgusts me. The idea of two women doing the same has a very different affect on me. Admittedly I've never taken the time to study this topic or do any research on it, it is really just how I feel right now. To add...we have two or three similar topics running in this forum right now, it has been some of the best discussion I have ever seen on the subject and in some cases has helped to change long held opinions I have had -

 

[nobodythank you]

Where my "i think its wrong" comment comes from is the fact that it's unnatural to the biological nature of reproduction. Thus it's not what is intended,

I don't want to seem like I am dog piling you, but I wanted to offer some food for thought on this area that may help shed some light. While it is obviously counter to reproduction (for obvious reasons), it is not necessarily unnatural. Several hundred species of animals have been observed engaging in homosexuality both in captivity and in the wild. Do Animals Exhibit Homosexuality? From Yale Scientific magazine, and Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate from National Geographic are some interesting articles on the topic.

While there is nothing definitive either way, it does help to illustrate the ever changing challenge to Darwin's original theory. Is it counter-productive to reproduction? Well yes of course. However, humans don't have sex just to procreate. We use sex for enjoyment as well. From the articles, homosexuality may also be used as a social tool among other species as well. Our understanding of biology is a never ending expansion of knowledge. In fact, I cannot remember where, but there was a science documentary that estimated within 10 years, the method for allowing two women or two men to create a child from each other's genetic code would be possible. Granted, it would be through manipulation and not natural occurrences.

 

[AWP]

I never ran from explaining homosexuality to my daughter. I framed it along "love" rather than "babies" and left it at that. Seeing two guys display affection doesn't bother me, but when my daughter was young seeing ANY couple with a tongue down the other's throat bothered me. Whatever the couple I shouldn't have to explain that sort of behavior to a 7 year old.

 

[Marauder06]

...

Here is a good summary of some of the thoughts on it. There are some academic articles linked to in that link. This is a summary not me saying this is evidence.

I read the linked article, and of eight links I clicked on in it, seven of them referred to the site's own articles and one let to a study that it would cost me something like $40 to read. I was hoping for something more substantial and credible, I'll read it if you have any good suggestions.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

@Ooh-Rah, we will have to agree to disagree brother. I don't wanna touch on your comments regarding your nephew, its not my place to comment one way or another on it.

@ke4gde, I see what you are saying and I've seen that behavior on the ranch I grew up on. However, the unnatural aspect, is I have two bulls fuck each other (normally out of dominance) and not breading the herd, one is removed and the herd gets bread. That behavior is more common in captivity and from my experience is caused by lack of breed ing mate or dominance.

@Freefalling, not running from the discussion, however, my kids are still too young for any sex talks of any kind. When I do have that talk, it will be grounded in what I feel is appropriate at that time, either be based on love, science or beliefs.

This has sparked a funny debate with my wife here at the house, so it may be a while before I respond back, dinner, few beers glasses of wine for her and I might come back with some funny "this is what she said" stuff

 

[TLDR20]

I read the linked article, and of eight links I clicked on in it, seven of them referred to the site's own articles and one let to a study that it would cost me something like $40 to read. I was hoping for something more substantial and credible, I'll read it if you have any good suggestions.

Like I said, it wasn't academic.

You could start here: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation | Science

I have a library access that allows me to easily search and access all these free articles? Are you able to access West Points library online.

Search Sexual orientation determination. There is plenty of reading there.

 

[Raptor]

I just want to springboard off your comment. I'm not saying you belong in the group I'm about to address, simply because I don't know, but I laugh my ass off at men who rail against taking it in the ass, but will have anal sex with a woman. An asshole's an asshole, what it is attached to doesn't change that. If a woman doing it is okay but a guy doing it isn't...might as well boycott Target by going to their stores.

Along those same lines, don't forget about people who all out hate homosexuals but love checking out two lesbians go at it.

 

[Devildoc]

I am socially conservative, I am fiscally conservative, and I am a Christian. So certainly one can infer my perspectives without me jotting out a 10-point memo. I just try to live and let live. I don't argue, I don't 'not' be around homosexuals/trannies, and nor I do I push my values on them. I do expect that they live by the same rules and not push their decisions/whatever on me. Where I start getting sporty is when there is an expectation of "special" consideration or "unequal" consideration because of fill-in-the-blank, or the lovely hypocritical irony comes out when that because I am not in 100% agreement with whatever I am the bigot/racist/misogynist.

 

[Marauder06]

Like I said, it wasn't academic.

You could start here: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation | Science

I have a library access that allows me to easily search and access all these free articles? Are you able to access West Points library online.

Search Sexual orientation determination. There is plenty of reading there.

I have plenty of access to research, we even have a guy whose job it is to do research for us. I was more interested in where you are getting your information.

 

[TLDR20]

I have plenty of access to research, we even have a guy whose job it is to do research for us. I was more interested in where you are getting your information.

I used worldcat online search database and search sexual orientation and determination. I read probably 10 papers.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

 

[Gunz]

Two beagles don't make a poodle. If I self identify as a decent human being and not an asshole can I have my own bathroom?

Reminds me of the Venn Diagram I drew for my sons vis a vis the only distinction in life that really matters.

 

[Devildoc]

Not sure to put this in this thread or the NC thread, but at any rate:

Caitlyn Jenner Experienced 'Sex Change Regret,' Might De-Transition, Biographer Says