Ukraine - Russia Conflict

[Blizzard]

This is interesting.

Evidently, U.S. made drones aren't performing particularly well for Ukraine. As a result, they're using Chinese made drones. This is particularly interesting given China-Russia relationship.

https://www.wsj.com/world/how-american-drones-failed-to-turn-the-tide-in-ukraine-b0ebbac3

 

[AWP]

WSJ: US drones suck

Pakistani citizens:

 

[Marauder06]

This is interesting.

Evidently, U.S. made drones aren't performing particularly well for Ukraine. As a result, they're using Chinese made drones. This is particularly interesting given China-Russia relationship.

https://www.wsj.com/world/how-american-drones-failed-to-turn-the-tide-in-ukraine-b0ebbac3

I couldn't read the article because of the paywall. However, I wonder if it's an equipment issue or a training/expertise issue. I've been out of the game for a while but US drones, piloted by trained and experienced US personnel, did pretty damn good overseas.

With the units I was in, I've got to believe that if the Chinese, then or now, were doing something better we'd probably have found a way to get and use their stuff instead of ours.

The above summary of the article makes me think of my relationship with the sport of golf: I don't completely understand it and I'm not immediately good at it, therefore it's stupid and I hate it.

 

[Blizzard]

Could be, but it seems like it's more than a training issue. Keeping in mind, we're talking small, portable drones here. This is a pretty good summary of the WSJ article:
American drones turned out to be ineffective and did not help the Ukrainian Armed Forces at the front, - WSJ - Ukraine Today .org

"Skydio CEO Adam Bry admitted that his drones were useless.

The publication [WSJ], citing Ukrainian authorities, notes that American drones are fragile and unable to overcome Russian jamming and GPS disabling technologies. Sometimes they were unable to take off, complete the mission, or return. American drones often cannot fly their advertised distances or carry significant payloads."

Some additional perspective re: the WSJ article I posted above per an earlier Op piece:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-war-drones-dji-china-america-80a1e1f9

"Seth’s Cropsey’s “Ukraine Needs American Drones” (op-ed, Aug. 7) aims in the right direction but misses the core problem. U.S. companies don’t mass produce the cheap, expendable drones Ukrainian troops need. Since these firms sell to governments and business customers, their advanced drones start at around $16,000.

U.S. defense-tech firms have spent months testing their drones in Ukraine, but some now leave their drones in storage because they couldn’t perform perfectly in Ukraine’s harsh battlefield conditions. U.S. firms don’t have a mass-market consumer drone that costs only a few thousand dollars, which is what Ukraine needs to replace DJI’s Mavic-3, the ubiquitous Chinese tool on the front line. The Pentagon or Commerce Department could encourage U.S. firms to enter the cheaper drone market, but they can’t buy drones that don’t exist at scale."

 

[Marauder06]

Maybe Ukraine could... make their own drones?

 

[Blizzard]

Maybe Ukraine could... make their own drones?

Build vs buy is a fair question, but we've given them tens of billions of dollars, so why not hit the market and buy what you need?

 

[AWP]

Maybe Ukraine could... make their own drones?

We've given them enough to build their own factories, but Ukrainian leadership has purchased boats, property, cars, and other personal items earmarked that money for other purposes.

 

[BlackSmokeRisinG]

Go buy a Chinese dirt bike off Amazon. Cheap, easy to assemble, and will out perform run of the mill Japanese designed dirt bikes, until you ride it.
These MF'ers can't keep lead and cadmium out of baby food.

It's only a matter of time before the Chi-Coms take over....

 

[ThunderHorse]

Could be, but it seems like it's more than a training issue. Keeping in mind, we're talking small, portable drones here. This is a pretty good summary of the WSJ article:
American drones turned out to be ineffective and did not help the Ukrainian Armed Forces at the front, - WSJ - Ukraine Today .org

"Skydio CEO Adam Bry admitted that his drones were useless.

The publication [WSJ], citing Ukrainian authorities, notes that American drones are fragile and unable to overcome Russian jamming and GPS disabling technologies. Sometimes they were unable to take off, complete the mission, or return. American drones often cannot fly their advertised distances or carry significant payloads."

Some additional perspective re: the WSJ article I posted above per an earlier Op piece:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-war-drones-dji-china-america-80a1e1f9

"Seth’s Cropsey’s “Ukraine Needs American Drones” (op-ed, Aug. 7) aims in the right direction but misses the core problem. U.S. companies don’t mass produce the cheap, expendable drones Ukrainian troops need. Since these firms sell to governments and business customers, their advanced drones start at around $16,000.

U.S. defense-tech firms have spent months testing their drones in Ukraine, but some now leave their drones in storage because they couldn’t perform perfectly in Ukraine’s harsh battlefield conditions. U.S. firms don’t have a mass-market consumer drone that costs only a few thousand dollars, which is what Ukraine needs to replace DJI’s Mavic-3, the ubiquitous Chinese tool on the front line. The Pentagon or Commerce Department could encourage U.S. firms to enter the cheaper drone market, but they can’t buy drones that don’t exist at scale."

So we have this company that makes drones, that appear to be barely a step up from a DJI Mavic, but literally you cannot buy a single Skydio drone COTS. Skydio completely killed off its consumer division. Meanwhile, DJI has been sold in Costco for the last 6 years. What are American Companies doing? Like Seriously.

I'm guessing that Police and Defense contracts keep these companies alive, but how many unit PAOs were running around with Mavic Minis until DoD was like...hey that's Chinese, can't use it?

 

[GOTWA]

As someone that is/use to be into RC, American drones are nowhere near DJI. Unfortunately, DJI owns the drone market because they are the best.

 

[R.Caerbannog]

Interesting blurb on Ukraine. Russia has taken a page out of Haj's book and is doing double tap attacks. This is where they send in 1000lb glide bombs to hit civie targets and infrastructure, then 30 - 90 min later send in another wave to kill first responders, aid workers, or engineers.

Also word that the Biden admin has been limiting Ukrainian strikes on Russia's oil refinery sector, which is completely dependent on Western tech to keep it operational. Of particular vulnerability are the refining towers. Which seems odd considering the funding bill that just passed. It's almost like the current administration is actively hamstringing the Ukrainians.

 

[Blizzard]

To dovetail a bit more on the post above re: inexpensive drone and the innovation taking place in Ukraine, here's an interesting article about how Ukrainians are using tablets to adapt their Soviet-era jets to modern U.S. munitions:
Ukrainian Fighter Jets “Using iPads” To Control Western Weapons

My big takeaway is how these relatively inexpensive and innovative solutions are being quickly developed and utilized on the battlefield. We (the U.S.) seem to have lost some of this innovation along the way. As an ex., Skunk Works produced the A-12, an aircraft like nothing we've ever seen innjust 20 months without many of the advantages we now have available. Could we do something like that again these days?

 

[AWP]

Could we do something like that again these days?

Technically and from an engineering perspective? Absolutely. That has not changed.

Politics and budget? Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Box]

Could we do something like that again these days?

...Politics and budget? Thanks for stopping by.

Travel back in time with me - to a time when Harley Davidson Motorcycles were made by a golf club company, and a time when Remington bought out marlin and turned their guns into shit, and a time when Hostess went bankrupt because the Union made RIDICULOUS demands and then declared the company shuttering its doors as "a win"
...and when Remington, the company that turned Marlin into shit ALSO went out of business because of the american dream business model.

We the People CANNOT build competitive drones for the same reasons that “Designed by Apple in California.” Is just a marketing term for 'everything is done in China'

Americans could build a working time machine if politicians would just keep their greasy grimy greedy paws and their shit covered noses out of everyone's business...
...but for now, we'll just keep buying DJI drones that allow China to collect data unless we "jailbreak" them before using them as operational tools of the trade

 

[AWP]

The SECDEF showed up to work long enough to announce another 6 billion in aid.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/26/politics/us-long-term-military-aid-ukraine/index.html

 

[Box]

I wonder if any of our selected leaders and their money managers made any changes to their investment portfolio before pushing through another 6 billion...