Ukraine - Russia Conflict

AWP

Formerly Known as Freefalling
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Afghan vets watching the Ukrainians using their aid packages..

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9 years of my life...
 

ThunderHorse

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I was ok but now that Zelensky is trying to get their NATO application expedited, hit me hard. I understand where he's coming from but the ignorance that that would automatically initiate WW3 and likely nuclear war. I'm torn now.
Not the first time they attempted to join NATO or the West. Remember, what started this was Yanukovych violating the will of the Ukrainian people and becoming a Russian puppet. Although not surprisingly he was from Donetsk.
 

RackMaster

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MIkeH92467

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I completely agree with the earlier comment that it's naive to think all of the aid going to Ukraine (money or materiel) are being properly spent/utilized. Corruption is a fact of life in war time. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Cayman Islands bank accounts being stuffed with the proceeds from arms sales to Ukraine. That is not a reason in my book to block the pipeline. There's a lot more at stake here than the criminality of some of our beneficiaries. I also totally with agree with @pardus that 300k is a fantasy number when it comes to Putin's "partial mobilization". The anecdotal reports I've seen indicate that the Russian press gangs are rounding up everyone with a pulse. There also are enough reports of flights out of Russia and highways out of Russia being jammed with men who might be subject to the "partial mobilization" that give me the impression that the Russians aren't buying the 300k figure either.
The argument over NATO countries "freeloading" on the US is not simple. As one poster noted, it's always cheater to deter a war than to fight one. So the question arises: are we better off to just look the other way when it comes to a country refusing to pay it's "fair share". We have to decide if getting stiffed on payments is worth the payoff of not having to spend blood and treasure on war.
 

pardus

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If it makes you feel any better, Cupcake and I, along with several members of this forum, spent countless hours getting people out of that shithole. I was even able to meet with some of them almost a year later. It was humbling.
ETA: I learned a lot from @pardus during those days.
Me!? 🤔
I completely agree with the earlier comment that it's naive to think all of the aid going to Ukraine (money or materiel) are being properly spent/utilized. Corruption is a fact of life in war time. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Cayman Islands bank accounts being stuffed with the proceeds from arms sales to Ukraine. That is not a reason in my book to block the pipeline. There's a lot more at stake here than the criminality of some of our beneficiaries. I also totally with agree with @pardus that 300k is a fantasy number when it comes to Putin's "partial mobilization". The anecdotal reports I've seen indicate that the Russian press gangs are rounding up everyone with a pulse. There also are enough reports of flights out of Russia and highways out of Russia being jammed with men who might be subject to the "partial mobilization" that give me the impression that the Russians aren't buying the 300k figure either.
The argument over NATO countries "freeloading" on the US is not simple. As one poster noted, it's always cheater to deter a war than to fight one. So the question arises: are we better off to just look the other way when it comes to a country refusing to pay it's "fair share". We have to decide if getting stiffed on payments is worth the payoff of not having to spend blood and treasure on war.
The Europeans now (again) see why NATO is vital and needs to be properly funded.
 

Kraut783

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I was ok but now that Zelensky is trying to get their NATO application expedited, hit me hard. I understand where he's coming from but the ignorance that that would automatically initiate WW3 and likely nuclear war. I'm torn now.

I can understand him wanting in NATO.....since the 1994 Budapest Memorandum was a bust and totally screwed them.
 

pardus

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I get it but frankly this goes beyond NATO. That application is a vote for mutually assured destruction.
Which is the overall point though, Russia knows it can't fuck with NATO, Ukraine is the bullied outsider now, it's almost a free target for Russia to fuck with. Could you imagine what the Baltics would be facing right now if they weren't NATO members?
That all said, I don't see Ukraine being admitted into NATO anytime soon.
 

Kraut783

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I get it but frankly this goes beyond NATO. That application is a vote for mutually assured destruction.

Finland and Sweden are in the process of joining, as well as Bosnia, Herzegovina and Georgia. Putin has all the excuses he wants to start a war over countries joining NATO.

I hate it all, but....I don't know what the hell is going to happen.....
 
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