Violence in Baltimore

[AKkeith]

Now it's turned into arguing what "class" or what "race" gets a slightly worse sentence for the same crime?

How about people take some personal responsibility and not commit crimes.? Everyone has a choice. Sure the "right" choice may be more difficult for some due to situations they were born into but for God sake. Everyone has a choice. People need to stop blaming race/religion/sec/skin color/upbringing/whatever other excuse you can think of, and take control of their own lives. Anyone and everyone can be successful and happy if they put their minds to it, dedicate their life to it, and stop making excuses.

 

[TLDR20]

Now it's turned into arguing what "class" or what "race" gets a slightly worse sentence for the same crime?

How about people take some personal responsibility and not commit crimes.? Everyone has a choice. Sure the "right" choice may be more difficult for some due to situations they were born into but for God sake. Everyone has a choice. People need to stop blaming race/religion/sec/skin color/upbringing/whatever other excuse you can think of, and take control of their own lives. Anyone and everyone can be successful and happy if they put their minds to it, dedicate their life to it, and stop making excuses.

Absolutely. No one is making excuses. But acting like there are not effects of policy is stupid. Drug crime policy of the 80's had a terrible side effect, the difference between powder cocaine and crack cocaine is the best example of a policy that treated the predominate users of one drug completely different than the users of a slightly different drug. Those policies led to the aggressive imprisonment of one sector of America, while leaving another relatively easy off. That is a policy that is not racially motivated, at least on the surface. BUT it acted like a racially motivated policy nonetheless. Now say you were convicted of a crack cocaine possession, possession of 28 grams carries a mandatory 5 year sentence. Meanwhile it takes the possession of 500 grams of cocaine to receive the same mandatory sentence. Chemically crack cocaine and powdered cocaine are almost identical. Again this policy on the surface is not racially motivated, but it has second and third order effects that lead to the system as a whole to be perceived as racist.

This conversation is not about making excuses. It is about the problems. I don't think I or anyone else has excused criminality in the least. IF you break the law you deserve to be punished. However like I pointed out above, and in different places here, that punishment should be similar across the board. Not heavily skewed to punish some a great deal more than others. When people go to prison their life obviously and rightly changes forever. However rightly or wrongly in the States when one gets out of prison, and are "reformed" they still have many of their rights taken from them forever(I know in that prisons probably make people worse, but that is another discussion entirely).

 

[Totentanz]

Now it's turned into arguing what "class" or what "race" gets a slightly worse sentence for the same crime?

It's a statistic that should be relatively flat. There are certain factors that should influence sentencing (e.g. circumstances of the crime, criminal history, et al), and certain factors that should not (in this case, I'll go for the easy one - race). If sentences are not equal with respect to the second set of factors, then we have a problem. The problem has nothing to do with the excuses offered or personal responsibility; those are a separate matter entirely.

The issue with addressing this is that it's an incredibly complex one (as we've noticed through the course of the thread). And yes, when you throw personalities (and their ability - or lack thereof - to take accountability for their actions, individually or as a group) and local cultures into the mix, it conflates a lot of the factors to the point where the whole thing is a giant, indistinguishable, mess. And then, when bad decisions are made, it becomes easier to blame a nameless system... whether or not the system was at fault (and rather than polarize, it it might do some good to consider that the system may, in fact, be less than ideal, and capable of being improved). I won't claim to have the answer to any of it... though I will say that I think

The other part of the problem is that certain personalities and institutions like to use the above (and the associated chaos) to agitate violence and advance their own ideology. I don't for one second believe that the majority of them are truly working toward equality. It doesn't marginalize the problem they're pointing out (the one TLDR20's been discussing), just causes me to tune out their crap.

TL;DR: if the system is broken it should be fixed, regardless of the wailing and gnashing of teeth in Ferguson, Baltimore, et al.

 

[Il Duce]

I think this article is a very accessible summary of the case on institutional racism and bias in law enforcement that @TLDR20 has referenced. http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer if that view is something you're interested in learning more about.

Interestingly it mirrors, in my opinion, many of the issues we have in the military. The status and authority that come with military service and rank are a powerful tool abusers use to hide their actions and culpability - something at the heart of issues we have with EO, SHARP, hazing, and I would argue areas of Intelligence Oversight. I remember very clearly my first company commander @marauder 06 talking about people abusing their power in the military as a double betrayal - the first against those they were abusing, the second against the institution since it ruined the hard-earned reputation and authority of others.

 

[racing_kitty]

Could you produce a better source than Vox? I'd be interested in reading from a more reputable source.

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/46-times-vox-totally-fucked-up-a-story-1673835447

 

[Florida173]

Could you produce a better source than Vox? I'd be interested in reading from a more reputable source.

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/46-times-vox-totally-fucked-up-a-story-1673835447

You don't like getting your news from liberal columnists/bloggers?

 

[Il Duce]

@racing_kitty

It's a first-person narrative opinion piece. Not a great deal of facts in the sense of an academic article or research piece. The only facts that would be true or untrue is if the personal events of this former officer happened or did not - or even if this is a legit, credible former officer. However, I don't think that's the applicability of the article. There are a significant number of academic studies on race, policing, and bias out there - if I come across one I think would be of benefit I'll post it. I thought what was good about this article is it's short and pretty accessible - told in the first person with simplified terms.

@Florida173

Vox is definitely a liberal site, but the article isn't news it's opinion. If you're interested in understanding the generally liberal side of this issue - which I believe is that institutional racism is a huge problem in US law enforcement - I think a liberal site is not an unreasonable source for that knowledge. If you're not interested in understanding that position, or if you already understand everything you need to understand about all positions that aren't your own - i.e. they are the result of idiots/America-haters/liars/etc. spreading their filth - then there's probably nothing for you to gain.

 

[racing_kitty]

Last month: "Goddamn motherfucking racist ass pigs! Get dafuq out my 'hood, you murdering cracker ass fuck!"

This month:


Merry fucking Christmas.

ETA: Here's the money quote from the actual article that screen shot came from:

Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said his officers “are not holding back,” despite encountering dangerous hostility in the Western District.

“Our officers tell me that when officers pull up, they have 30 to 50 people surrounding them at any time,” Batts said

Yeah, I'll be fucking damned if I'm working alone in a crowd like that.

 

[AWP]

@racing_kitty

It's a first-person narrative opinion piece. Not a great deal of facts in the sense of an academic article or research piece. The only facts that would be true or untrue is if the personal events of this former officer happened or did not - or even if this is a legit, credible former officer. However, I don't think that's the applicability of the article. There are a significant number of academic studies on race, policing, and bias out there - if I come across one I think would be of benefit I'll post it. I thought what was good about this article is it's short and pretty accessible - told in the first person with simplified terms.

@Florida173

Vox is definitely a liberal site, but the article isn't news it's opinion. If you're interested in understanding the generally liberal side of this issue - which I believe is that institutional racism is a huge problem in US law enforcement - I think a liberal site is not an unreasonable source for that knowledge. If you're not interested in understanding that position, or if you already understand everything you need to understand about all positions that aren't your own - i.e. they are the result of idiots/America-haters/liars/etc. spreading their filth - then there's probably nothing for you to gain.

It is an opinion piece but backed with facts and vignettes to support the author's opinion. So there was institutionalized torture in the NYPD. That occurs in the majority of communities? The author can't say but he implies it exists and because he's a former LEO his opinion carries weight even without enough fact to support his assertions. He may well be right, but without enough to support his claims he is wrong with his generalizations. He even starts the article with an opinion grounded in numbers, but how many people upon reading the article will remember it that way? The latter is a rhetorical question but I think it is one to consider.

Like I posted earlier, even the Director of the FBI said he doesn't have enough information regarding race and law enforcement.

 

[AfroNinja267]

One of the biggest problems with cases like this (at least in my naive 15 year old opinion) is that people don't bother really learning about it. Rather, they read a headline and assume they know all they need to know.

Last week I got into it with a teacher and another student over the military (story for another day) and when the topic switched to police brutality I realized I should not discuss politics with my teachers. He got in my face, saying that there's a pattern going on (Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Freddy Gray) and when I pointed out that neither of us know enough about the circumstances of each case to form an opinion he got even angrier.

Now imagine people like that, only a lot younger, angrier, and more naive hearing about Freddy Gray. This is what I feel produces violence like that in Baltimore and it needs to stop.

Sorry if I ranted a bit, back to hiding now.

 

[racing_kitty]

The Baltimore Sun has acquired a copy of the autopsy report. A couple of snippets:

Gray tested positive for opiates and cannabinoid when he was admitted to Maryland Shock Trauma Center, according to the autopsy. The report makes no further reference to the drugs found in his system.

The report does not note any previous injuries to Gray's spine.

The autopsy details a chronology of the events surrounding Gray's arrest that helped inform the medical examiner's conclusion. The medical examiner relied upon witness statements, videos and an examination of the transport van.

While bystanders captured his arrest on video showing Gray moaning for help, the autopsy concluded that Gray suffered no injuries to suggest a neck hold or stemming from physical restraint. (emphasis mine) Assistant medical examiner Carol H. Allan noted that Gray could be seen bearing weight on his legs and speaking as he was loaded into the van.

And...

The van made several stops. The second stop occurred a few blocks away on Baker Street, where officers placed an identification band and leg restraints on Gray.

"Reportedly, Mr. Gray was still yelling and shaking the van," the medical examiner wrote. "He was removed from the van and placed on the ground in a kneeling position, facing the van doors, while ankle cuffs were placed, and then slid onto the floor of the van, belly down and head first, reportedly still verbally and physically active."

According to the article, the fatal injury occurred after the second stop and before the fifth stop. The noise that the second arrestee heard may have been Gray having a seizure resulting from the injury.

Sounds to me like the driver of the wagon is going to have the hardest time of it at trial, since as the operator of the vehicle he should've made sure that the prisoner was safely belted in in accordance with department policy before driving away. If Mosby can prove it was a "rough ride," then the murder charge might stick. Otherwise, a lesser charge of manslaughter would have been more realistic. That doesn't mean the jury won't be able to consider the lesser charge; however, that will be addressed at trial. I don't see the other five being convicted, but IANAL.

 

[Salt USMC]

It's good to see that, at the very least, the arresting officers have a good chance of being cleared.

 

[Florida173]

A little bit of new information on what is going on in Baltimore.

This could be the break the Baltimore cops were looking for.

The mound of evidence prosecutors in the Freddie Gray turned over to defense attorneys includes a crucial videotaped statement from a witness who told police in no uncertain terms that the Baltimore man who died in custody in April had been deliberately trying to injure himself in the back of a police van.

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2015/06...-wide-open-judge-almost-has-to-dismiss-219608

 

[pardus]

Haha, sounds like Donta is going to have some explaining to do on the streets!

 

[Rapid]

"Gun violence in Chicago at the weekend left 10 people dead, including a 7-year-old boy, and more than 50 wounded."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33414256

50 wounded? 10 dead? No 'racist cops' to blame though, I guess, otherwise this would have been major news... rather than a tidbit I came across.

But hey, it's getting better!

"Despite the multiple shootings since Thursday, the number of incidents was lower than in the same period in 2014. Last year, 16 people were shot dead and more than 80 others were injured, according to the Chicago Tribune."

 

[Centermass]

Freddie Gray case: Charges against three remaining officers dropped

In a hearing Wednesday meant to start the trial of Officer Garrett Miller, Chief Deputy State's Attorney Michael Schatzow told Williams that the state was dropping all charges against Miller, Porter and Sgt. Alicia White.

Full Story

Now Mosby needs to be charged.

 

[Etype]

"Gun violence in Chicago at the weekend left 10 people dead, including a 7-year-old boy, and more than 50 wounded."

Chicago boy, 7, among victims as gun violence sweeps city - BBC News

50 wounded? 10 dead? No 'racist cops' to blame though, I guess, otherwise this would have been major news... rather than a tidbit I came across.

But hey, it's getting better!

"Despite the multiple shootings since Thursday, the number of incidents was lower than in the same period in 2014. Last year, 16 people were shot dead and more than 80 others were injured, according to the Chicago Tribune."

Even the Brits recognize how manipulative our media is.

Why doesn't BLM get it?

 

[Ooh-Rah]

Why doesn't BLM get it?

Because when it comes to black-on-black violence, who does the finger have to point to and accountability have to come from?

Which, interestingly enough, I could/would become a huge supporter of BLM if they focused on reducing this type of violence -

 

[Devildoc]

Freddie Gray case: Charges against three remaining officers dropped

In a hearing Wednesday meant to start the trial of Officer Garrett Miller, Chief Deputy State's Attorney Michael Schatzow told Williams that the state was dropping all charges against Miller, Porter and Sgt. Alicia White.

Full Story

Now Mosby needs to be charged.

Color me not surprised. That moron of a DA brought what she thought were her slam-dunk cases first; with each not guilty/acquittal, etc., each successive case would be harder and harder to convict.

 

[DA SWO]

Freddie Gray case: Charges against three remaining officers dropped

In a hearing Wednesday meant to start the trial of Officer Garrett Miller, Chief Deputy State's Attorney Michael Schatzow told Williams that the state was dropping all charges against Miller, Porter and Sgt. Alicia White.

Full Story

Now Mosby needs to be charged.