Violence in Baltimore

[TLDR20]

Yep, those scholarships are available to us pesky whites, us terrible men, and even us downtrodden straight guys.

 

[x SF med]

Okay... I have to play the "Bad Mod"... On Topic Please. We're straying into the issues of privilege/racism/social injury of the downtrodden and away from the incident itself.

 

[Salt USMC]

I think most of us missed this (myself included)
Last Wednesday Brooke Baldwin, the CNN reporter who insinuated that veterans-turned-cops were behind the escalating tensions in cities such as Baltimore, went on air and issued a real no-shit apology.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/0...ticle_organicsidebar_expansion&iref=obnetwork

Good on her. She didn't resort to the bullshit "I'm sorry if I offended anyone" non-apology, instead referring to her own words as "a false narrative" which was wrong. Then she just apologized. As simple as that. She didn't try to dodge, duck, dip, dive, or even dodge the controversy. She owned her mistake, admitted that she was wrong, and apologized. How refreshing!

EDIT: She actually apologized a second time as well. Someone at CNN must've been REALLY pissed off!

 

[Florida173]

Okay... I have to play the "Bad Mod"... On Topic Please. We're straying into the issues of privilege/racism/social injury of the downtrodden and away from the incident itself.

From the narratives in Baltimore and the talking heads, I believed these to be the exact issues related to the incident itself.

 

[racing_kitty]

And here I was, thinking I somehow was going to fail a drug test after I saw that. A proper apology is a dying art form these days. Good on her for owning up to it and having the balls to say the two hardest words to string together in the English language.

 

[racing_kitty]

Okay... I have to play the "Bad Mod"... On Topic Please. We're straying into the issues of privilege/racism/social injury of the downtrodden and away from the incident itself.

From the narratives in Baltimore and the talking heads, I believed these to be the exact issues related to the incident itself.

That's exactly what the media was portraying it to be, until the arresting crew turned out to be 50% non-white. Then they had to resort to some serious "step'n-fetch-it" to avoid looking even more stupid than they already did.

 

[TLDR20]

That's exactly what the media was portraying it to be, until the arresting crew turned out to be 50% non-white. Then they had to resort to some serious "step'n-fetch-it" to avoid looking even more stupid than they already did.

I still don't think the race of the officers speaks to the racist nature of the system. Black officers can surely be racist to both black and white suspects. If the media's message is/was that this could only be a racial issue if they were white they had an extremely shitty view of the problem. What I think is actually the issue though is people say the system is bad, and people assume they are talking only in terms of black criminals and white cops. Again that is myopic. The media is obviously fucking retarded.

 

[Florida173]

racist nature of the system.

Alleged

Black officers can surely be racist to both black and white suspects

They actually can't be by definition and most common sense internet searches.

 

[x SF med]

IMOO- the true issue is the alleged use of excessive force/deadly force in the arrest of an individual. The riots are a symptom of a racialism in many stratified urban areas where neighborhoods coalesce along cultural/racial lines.

In the publicized words of one of the protestors "I'm gonna go out and kill me some white cops as payback..." racialism/racism is not any less ugly when it is black to white rather than the perceived 'norm' of white to black, actually in my experience, the former is much more prevalent. And why is the much more violent Latino vs Black issue not often raised in the media? There is no play on racial guilt for slavery in this country... because the Spanish slave trade did not feed the New Orleans Markets, and The conquistadors did not import African slaves into their holdings in the New World... Oh! wait, they did, but the Spanish population of the US was not in charge of the government ... and there were no Black slave owners, or were there?

We cannot change history, we can change the present and the future, we should not forget history, but neither should we dwell on it, or live in it.

The aftermath of the riots to protest one man's death in custody was, again, IMOO, nothing more than a mob of bored rabble rousers looking for an excuse to create havoc and cause damage.

Did those riots change what had happened? No. Did those riots speed up the investigation of the incident? Unlikely. did those riots interrupt the social services, health services, public safety and welfare services that many in that community rely on to feed their kids? Absolutely.

The Baltimore community, refused to allow any of the parties involved to accept their responsibility for any part in the incident. Do I believe the 'victim' had a hand in the final outcome - to a degree, yes, had he not been a known felon, with warrants for his arrest, he would not have been in the position to be in the back of a police van that night. The community wholly absolved him of any culpability, and called him innocent. This is not in any way meant to relieve any responsibility from the officers involved, if the detainee were violent and resisting, Newton's 3rd law comes into play... but those same officers have the responsibility to deliver that detainee to the jail in the same shape they found him, or get him medical attention if that detainee is injured in any way prior to, during or after arrest.

Mob rule prevailed and logic failed in this incident... that's the shortest answer. It is not a conspiracy against the Black Community as a whole.

 

[Florida173]

Are the disagrees that I am getting coming from me believing that the nature of the system may not be racist, or from the fact that blacks can't feel that their race is superior to blacks... because I'm a bit confused.

 

[Il Duce]

@Florida173 my disagree was for both.

 

[TLDR20]

Are the disagrees that I am getting coming from me believing that the nature of the system may not be racist, or from the fact that blacks can't feel that their race is superior to blacks... because I'm a bit confused.

Both. The system has tendencies that lean towards disproportionate punishment of blacks, not allegedly, factually. I seriously doubt you can find a definition of racism that says it is only from white to black, or only from black to white, or only x to y. Black police officers can surely feel superiority to people of there own race just as a white person can against people of their own race.

Further you are taking a definition that fails to take into account the whole situation. Racism has come to include under its umbrella term many others, including racial discrimination, stereotyping, and other prejudicial behaviors that exist. While those may not be Webster definitions of racism, they fit under the umbrella when describing problems of a systemic nature rather than the actions of an individual.

 

[Florida173]

Both. The system has tendencies that lean towards disproportionate punishment of blacks, not allegedly, factually. I seriously doubt you can find a definition of racism that says it is only from white to black, or only from black to white, or only x to y. Black police officers can surely feel superiority to people of there own race just as a white person can against people of their own race.

Further you are taking a definition that fails to take into account the whole situation. Racism has come to include under its umbrella term many others, including racial discrimination, stereotyping, and other prejudicial behaviors that exist. While those may not be Webster definitions of racism, they fit under the umbrella when describing problems of a systemic nature rather than the actions of an individual.

I think the word you are looking for is classism. It fits the situation a lot better than having anything to do with race... unless you want to get into a discussion about ethnicities and how different Africans can feel superior to other Africans.. but we are talking about here in the states where most blacks don't know their lineage for obvious and unfortunate reasons.

class·ism
ˈklasˌizəm/
noun
noun: classism
prejudice against or in favor of people belonging to a particular social class.

 

[TLDR20]

I think the word you are looking for is classism. It fits the situation a lot better than having anything to do with race... unless you want to get into a discussion about ethnicities and how different Africans can feel superior to other Africans.. but we are talking about here in the states where most blacks don't know their lineage for obvious and unfortunate reasons.

No, that isn't the word I am looking for. I have used the terminology that is correct. Classism would fit under the umbrella here for the systemic nature of the problems, and in black officers case, might explain why they go along with some of the policies. But I think that black officers are jut as likely as white officers to do things that could include stereotyping, profiling, and discrimination, which while may be classist(if that is a term that gets you to agree there is a problem), may also have racial roots.

If you are saying that black officers, and then of course white officers are classist, would that not suggest a systemic problem? If people assume people of a different class are beneath them and therefore warrant more scrutiny and a different punishment system isn't that a problem? Take the word race out of it and think of the issues solely as class issues. It doesn't change the fact that they are problems. But don't get it too twisted, those problems disproportionately affect blacks, hence why they are often labelled as racial problems.

 

[Florida173]

ra·cial
ˈrāSHəl/
adjective
adjective: racial
of or relating to race.

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
noun: racism
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

You are correct that there is an overwhelming racial component to what is going on, but that doesn't make anything inherently racist.

 

[Florida173]

Especially interesting for Baltimore considering that Obama apparently praised the Baltimore Police department just two months ago "as a model of unbiased community policing"

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/050615-751384-obama-praised-baltimore-police-department.htm

In a March White House report on police reforms, Obama and his Task Force on 21st Century Policing praised Baltimore's force and its black chief for "implementing national best practices for policies and training," including "use of force" reforms. His task force even quoted Baltimore Police Commissioner Anthony Batts, who said he changed "outdated procedures" that "put officers at odds with the community."

 

[TLDR20]

You are correct that there is an overwhelming racial component to what is going on, but that doesn't make anything inherently racist.

If i said that if you were black in America and convicted of a crime you were likely to get a sentence at least14.5% longer, what kind of problem is that? Is it a racial one? If a system leans towards having more than one racial problem, I would say the system is racist. Taking Webster definitions and trying to apply them to something as nuanced as racism is a silly way to argue. It is like pornography, the definition doesn't fit what it is all the time, but I know it when I see it.

 

[Florida173]

If i said that if you were black in America and convicted of a crime you were likely to get a sentence at least14.5% longer, what kind of problem is that? Is it a racial one? If a system leans towards having more than one racial problem, I would say the system is racist. Taking Webster definitions and trying to apply them to something as nuanced as racism is a silly way to argue. It is like pornography, the definition doesn't fit what it is all the time, but I know it when I see it.

I would say welcome to the world of statistics that I have to deal with on a daily basis. I can make them say whatever I want.

The system is nuanced for me to put a one size fits all approach to characterizing it with one word, especially with the decentralized nature of our LEAs. Are you calling for a federal police force?

 

[TLDR20]

I would say welcome to the world of statistics that I have to deal with on a daily basis. I can make them say whatever I want.

The system is nuanced for me to put a one size fits all approach to characterizing it with one word, especially with the decentralized nature of our LEAs. Are you calling for a federal police force?

I am sure that you can not make a statistic say that white people face harsher sentences for the same crimes. But you can try if you want to throw it out there and get it published, because that statistic would be groundbreaking.
Look at the problems I have highlighted, tell me with a straight face that they are not problems. I can point them out again-
1. School to Prison Pipeline
2. Sentencing Disparities
3. Police brutality
4. Another systemic problem-Militarization of police

If you do not think those are systemic problems, many with racial components, than we are too far apart to even engage in a conversation. When the system has so many things in place that have racial components, the system leans itself towards being racist. If blacks are systemically targeted, either through criminal definitions or sentencing policies than there is an implied understanding that they are of less value, which would fit under the Webster definition of racism. I will concede that all these problems do not fit solely under the definition of racism alone. That does not mean they suddenly are not issues.

I have never called for a federal police force. I have not said anything about that, in fact I think that would lead to worse problems. I understand the disparate nature of police forces in different localities. But these things are widespread.

 

[Florida173]

I am sure that you can not make a statistic say that white people face harsher sentences for the same crimes. But you can try if you want to throw it out there and get it published, because that statistic would be groundbreaking.

It's a spatial statistics issue with disparity between rural and inner-city. The number is a gross over-generalization to a non-centralized problem.

I'm not denying the issues that you have stated as not happening or relevant, but that there is a different story and narrative/truth for each case. Below is a good opinion about the situation in Baltimore and an actual story line that makes sense over "it's the racist system" argument that I hear constantly.

From the Wall Street Journal Yesterday
There is another view. In this view, the disaster of inner cities isn’t primarily about race at all. It’s about the consequences of 50 years of progressive misrule—which on race has proved an equal-opportunity failure.
Baltimore is but the latest liberal-blue city where government has failed to do the one thing it ought—i.e., put the cops on the side of the vulnerable and law-abiding—while pursuing “solutions” that in practice enfeeble families and social institutions and local economies.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/baltimore-is-not-about-race-1430781505