FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division

[pardus]

First of all I don't even know if this is really the FBI saying this, it might be a case of "The FBI says most police sniper engagements are under 70yards" type of deal for all I know.
I'm not a pistol guy, I've never been professionally trained, I rarely shoot one due to where I live and I can't hit a barn door at 25yrds. Give me a .40 S&W and the barn door could be 10 yrds away and be safe, I'm hopeless with that round, but better with a .45 and a 9mm... :-/

That all said, if given the choice of pistol caliber I'd go with a 9mm.
It's an easier round to shoot and therefore inherently more accurate as a result, particularly for non expert types. Bottom line, shot placement is more important than caliber. It's an effective round too.
e.g. I have a good friend who was NYPD 50's - 70's, he laughs when people talk about the .38 being under powered. He incapacitated several cars during his career with a single round of .38 special.


What are your thoughts on this article and subject?

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/






ETA: shot placement.

 

[policemedic]

Two words: shot placement.

 

[fox1371]

Shot placement and shot succession. Outside of that, it's a crap shoot.

Here's the best article that I've read to date on the subject.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/we...opping-power-myths-legends-and-realities.aspx

 

[x SF med]

9mm... not a bad round, easy to shoot, low recoil, and you put a 147 Speer Gold Dot in it, and your target is going to have bad day.

I want a light pistol, since I like a .30 cal (.308) for my long gun...

 

[Etype]

9mm is the round of choice in USPSA open, and they load them to meet major power factor, my point? The whole .357 sig/10mm/.40 boondoggle that the FBI went through was an epic of money wasted when existing guns could've shot +P+ ammo and done the same thing. Sure, they may stress some chambers and eventually damage some slides, buts its Budapest than going through 4 different guns searching for a silver bullet.

Spend that money federal govt, spend that money.

 

[0699]

I love 9mm. Back when I owned guns, I had several 9mms. I like the controlability, the lack of felt recoil, and the capacity on even a small pistol.

 

[AWP]

I have a G23, but f I had it to do over again I'd buy a 19 instead. With that said, I'm also not losing sleep over the decision.

 

[Kraut783]

Talking to some of the guys at work, they don't see fielding the 9mm that quick overall...probably with the new SA's, but slow getting them to the field offices. A few on my squad are looking forward to having the Glock 19.

I still do the .45, but in a Glock 30S now instead of 1911.

 

[Viper1]

Two words: shot placement.

Agree. Unfortunately, Senator Bobby Kennedy and Archduke Franz Ferdinand were killed with .22 caliber bullets. Just saying...

 

[Gunz]

38's a great caliber, I load my 357 with it. I like having the option but 357 jumps around too much. Many years ago I achieved a Oneness with the 1911, so it remains my best bud to this day. I've fired 9mm and enjoyed it but I've never owned one. Whatever, you hit the motherfucker, he dies, you live. If I ever need home defense I'm going for the rifles.

Last time I got drunk with a Marine bro, his son--an FBI SA out of the Orlando field office--was our designated driver. He had the Glock 40 at the time. I'll ask him what he prefers...

 

[DA SWO]

38's a great caliber, I load my 357 with it. I like having the option but 357 jumps around too much. Many years ago I achieved a Oneness with the 1911, so it remains my best bud to this day. I've fired 9mm and enjoyed it but I've never owned one. Whatever, you hit the motherfucker, he dies, you live. If I ever need home defense I'm going for the rifles.

Last time I got drunk with a Marine bro, his son--an FBI SA out of the Orlando field office--was our designated driver. He had the Glock 40 at the time. I'll ask him what he prefers...

Hopefully he said women....

 

[pardus]

He had the Glock 40 at the time. I'll ask him what he prefers...

Also ask him what he has trained on. To say "I love X because it's all I've used" is a bit... limited.

 

[Kraut783]

One thing I can say, they don't use range ammo....always use duty ammo.

 

[pardus]

One thing I can say, they don't use range ammo....always use duty ammo.

Why? What's the difference?

 

[0699]

Also ask him what he has trained on. To say "I love X because it's all I've used" is a bit... limited.

A lot of candidates show up at new agent training having never fired a gun.

 

[Gunz]

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...How-the-FBI-reignited-the-pistol-caliber-war/

..."Issues of caliber and weapon selection pale in comparison to mindset, tactics, and training. We need to dedicate our extremely limited resources (time, money) to the things that matter the most, and equipment selection is at the very bottom of that list..."

 

[DA SWO]

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...How-the-FBI-reignited-the-pistol-caliber-war/

..."Issues of caliber and weapon selection pale in comparison to mindset, tactics, and training. We need to dedicate our extremely limited resources (time, money) to the things that matter the most, and equipment selection is at the very bottom of that list..."

Money, time (to train/retrain), tactics (which can be a subset of training), equipment.

 

[Gunz]

Also ask him what he has trained on. To say "I love X because it's all I've used" is a bit... limited.

He says Glock Model 28 FG&R (finger groove & rail).

 

[Kraut783]

Why? What's the difference?

Many departments, mine included, can't afford to buy and train with nothing but duty ammo. So in training you might use cheaper ball CCI Blazer ammo and your duty ammo would be a higher grain, higher performance round, and more expensive. It would be nice to just use duty ammo all the time, but that takes deep pockets.

 

[policemedic]

The other thing is that it ensures your duty weapon functions with the duty ammo. We were forced to use 165gr .40 S&W one year for training because of the ammo shortage, but we issue the troops 180gr. Guess what...M&Ps were designed to function with a 180gr round, and there were several hiccups with the lighter rounds.

Even when you're using good quality training ammo, like American Eagle, there are some measurable differences between say, AE training ammo and the issued Federal JHPs, even with the same bullet weights.

All that said, I'd rather see departments spend their money on lots of training ammo rather then spending big bucks to shoot JHPs at paper. Shoot a lot of FMJ, but have them qualify with the duty round. Best of both worlds and the troops get to shoot more.