FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division

[Gunz]

I know almost nothing about law enforcement training, but technical issues aside, does it make all that much difference whether you use training or duty ammo on the range? Any day at the range is a good day, anytime your putting rounds on paper is a + proficiency day.

 

[Kraut783]

Not really, more time on the range is always better. But, range ammo compared to duty ammo...it's kinda like shooting a shotgun with bird shot compared to double 00 buck

 

[pardus]

Not really, more time on the range is always better. But, range ammo compared to duty ammo...it's kinda like shooting a shotgun with bird shot compared to double 00 buck

Is it really? How? Recoil? Weight of rounds in the weapon? What happens down range is meaningless because you're shooting paper vs flesh.
I'm not getting the argument fully.

 

[policemedic]

Not really, more time on the range is always better. But, range ammo compared to duty ammo...it's kinda like shooting a shotgun with bird shot compared to double 00 buck

I guess it depends on what kind of training ammo and what kind of duty ammo you use. Blazer is known to be somewhat low-quality, so I feel your pain and understand your argument.

My duty round is a .45 ACP 230gr JHP from Black Hills. For training I normally use either American Eagle or Speer Lawman 230gr FMJ. Those are accurate, good quality rounds and they go bang all the time. On the other hand, I've shot some imported ammo that was so inaccurate it made me wonder if I knew how to shoot. The plus side was that I got lots of practice clearing stoppages...

I think where departments get into trouble--both from a practical and legal perspective--is when they do things like using cheap standard pressure ammo but carry +P or +P+ duty rounds. For example, training with 9mm 115gr FMJ but using 147gr +P JHPs on the road.

 

[CQB]

As per the articles comment section, missing 70-80% of the time is a worry. Do they shoot both eyes open? It makes a difference as most incidents IMO would be at close range & therefore not mush time to aim.
Apart from that, the Braille I'm reading says it's an ad for Luger with some very interesting points along the way.

 

[Gunz]

...missing 70-80% of the time is a worry...

Yes, and they list higher mag capacity as one reason to justify 9mm Luger. That, to me, is not a solution for 70-80% misses in high-adrenal moments.

One thing I've noticed in some videos of LEO vrs BG handgun shootouts. Trying to duck and weave and shoot at the same time, rounds flying all over the place. That shows me, not a need for a caliber debate, but a need for more training that will increase self-confidence in one's own skill and proficiency, that in turn allows a person to risk exposure long enough to make effective hits. The steadier hand, the cooler head prevails. Or, in the words of a Corpsman I know, "suspend your fear long enough to do your job efficiently."

 

[pardus]

I've seen a video of two NYPD cops, were following a gunman who had just murdered a co-worker, the cops approached, the gunman spun around with a pistol in his hand and the cops opened fire (one firing 7 times, the other 9 times), killing the gunman, in a crowed tourist area, the cops also shot 9 bystanders...

"it appears that all nine of the victims were struck either by fragments or by bullets fired by police," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly told reporters on--
--He reiterated that the officers appeared to have no choice but to shoot Johnson, whose body had 10 bullet wounds in the chest, arms and legs.--
"I believe it was handled well," Kelly said.

Now I'm not trying to slam cops with this at all. It's just that guns and cops are a scary mix to me (I'm also not saying they shouldn't carry them, that's preposterous IMO), I'm saying a lot of cops are nervous about guns and situations where guns are involved. That scares me.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nypd-cops-bullets-wounded-9-at-empire-state-1.3926801

 

[racing_kitty]

I've seen a video of two NYPD cops, were following a gunman who had just murdered a co-worker, the cops approached, the gunman spun around with a pistol in his hand and the cops opened fire (one firing 7 times, the other 9 times), killing the gunman, in a crowed tourist area, the cops also shot 9 bystanders...



Now I'm not trying to slam cops with this at all. It's just that guns and cops are a scary mix to me (I'm also not saying they shouldn't carry them, that's preposterous IMO), I'm saying a lot of cops are nervous about guns and situations where guns are involved. That scares me.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nypd-cops-bullets-wounded-9-at-empire-state-1.3926801

This came up in a conversation that I had with @policemedic several months ago. Something that he mentioned as a factor in this particular shootout, something that I wasn't aware of, is that NYPD is required to have a ridiculously high amount of trigger pull on their service weapons. I don't remember the exact poundage, but it's enough that it could very well negatively affect your ability to hit whomever it is you're aiming at. That's not even taking into account range time (or lack thereof) spent with that weapon to attain/maintain proficiency.

 

[Kraut783]

Is it really? How? Recoil? Weight of rounds in the weapon? What happens down range is meaningless because you're shooting paper vs flesh.
I'm not getting the argument fully.

Our training ammo (Blazer) is fine for shooting at the range and for training. But our duty ammo, in my case Remington Golden Saber .45 Auto, 230 Grain BJHP, is a higher grain round so there is more recoil per shot.

As policemedic stated earlier "I think where departments get into trouble--both from a practical and legal perspective--is when they do things like using cheap standard pressure ammo but carry +P or +P+ duty rounds. For example, training with 9mm 115gr FMJ but using 147gr +P JHPs on the road." A lot of departments have to do this to same cost of buying thousands of rounds a year....it would be nice to have deep pockets like the feds.

It would be great to always use the duty ammo all the time....your training shooting would be consistent with shooting on duty.

 

[pardus]

This came up in a conversation that I had with @policemedic several months ago. Something that he mentioned as a factor in this particular shootout, something that I wasn't aware of, is that NYPD is required to have a ridiculously high amount of trigger pull on their service weapons. I don't remember the exact poundage, but it's enough that it could very well negatively affect your ability to hit whomever it is you're aiming at. That's not even taking into account range time (or lack thereof) spent with that weapon to attain/maintain proficiency.

Interesting, and not surprising.
I spoke with an ex NYPD cop, he worked at the NYPD qual range for years, he told of one cop who showed up to qual with a pistol so rusty it wouldn't operate and another who turned up with an unloaded weapon, when questioned about it, it turned out the weapon hadn't been reloaded since the last time the cop had been at the qual range...
NYC is particularly bad as there is no gun culture there at all, the cops are generally un familiar with them.

Our training ammo (Blazer) is fine for shooting at the range and for training. But our duty ammo, in my case Remington Golden Saber .45 Auto, 230 Grain BJHP, is a higher grain round so there is more recoil per shot.

As policemedic stated earlier "I think where departments get into trouble--both from a practical and legal perspective--is when they do things like using cheap standard pressure ammo but carry +P or +P+ duty rounds. For example, training with 9mm 115gr FMJ but using 147gr +P JHPs on the road." A lot of departments have to do this to same cost of buying thousands of rounds a year....it would be nice to have deep pockets like the feds.

It would be great to always use the duty ammo all the time....your training shooting would be consistent with shooting on duty.

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[racing_kitty]

I spoke with an ex NYPD cop, he worked at the NYPD qual range for years, he told of one cop who showed up to qual with a pistol so rusty it wouldn't operate and another who turned up with an unloaded weapon, when questioned about it, it turned out the weapon hadn't been reloaded since the last time the cop had been at the qual range...
NYC is particularly bad as there is no gun culture there at all, the cops are generally un familiar with them.

The highlighted text above makes my stomach turn. He needs to have his service weapon applied forcefully to the side of his head until the lesson has been learned through forced osmosis. With each crushing blow to his temple, reiterate that the beating would never have happened if there were any bullets in the fucking gun with which to shoot the man who was beating him.

I wish I could say that I'm surprised about the condition of the first cop's weapon, but I'm not. That reminds me of when I was assigned an M249 in November 2004 that still had carbon and Iraqi sand in it from sometime in OIF 1. It took me three days to get that thing cleaned back to my standard (which apparently was higher than the unit standard), and that was with the help of three other sets of hands and a Dremel I borrowed from an NCO in my platoon. That was my first taste of just how lax people are with simple cleanliness of their service weapons. I had always thought that slovenly guns were the exception to the rule; sadly, it looks more like impeccable maintenance is the outlier these days.

 

[Brill]

Interesting, and not surprising.
I spoke with an ex NYPD cop, he worked at the NYPD qual range for years, he told of one cop who showed up to qual with a pistol so rusty it wouldn't operate and another who turned up with an unloaded weapon, when questioned about it, it turned out the weapon hadn't been reloaded since the last time the cop had been at the qual range...

But I bet his M4 and his tactical MRAP were clean as a whistle with 210 rounds...ready for that no knock warrant to nab those hostile unpaid parking ticket repeat offenders. ISIL inspired homegrown lone wolfs are out there and they're targeting doughnut shops...er, cops...who have police related photos on their facebook!!!:-/

It's only a matter of time before police get JTAC training.

 

[AWP]

Years ago I shot a handful of IPSC matches and hung around for a few more. In that brief time I saw 4 LEO's who were new to IPSC. Only one returned for a follow-on match, 1 left in the middle of a match, and two finished the day and never returned. One of the regulars was an LEO and worked with those 4. He said the reason he stayed with it is because he realized how much he didn't know. The 4 who showed up were chest-thumping, high scores on their annual qualifications, guys who other cops would ask for advice. Makes sense, right? Scoring high on your dept.'s annual qual means you're good, right? Yes, I'm aware that IPSC/ USPSA/ IDPA uses "soft" rounds and the LEO's were shooting "full flavored" rounds, but that doesn't change the results. They weren't hitting anything. The only upside was it made the targets easier to paste after a run...

Fast forward to the present and soldiers/ airmen in Afghanistan. I've seen weapons "frozen" closed because of the accumulated dirt, weapons shipped over with missing firing pins or cracked bolt carriers, and many, many more which were utterly filthy. Many/ most of these folks are fobbits, I get that, but quite a few others were part of an RCT trolling for mines. They left the wire daily and their weapons BEFORE a patrol looked like ass. I've also seen other units with the same fobbit MOS' and their weapons were almost silver from the constant cleaning; gear which was worn, but not dirty.

Leadership...for two groups of people who rely on guns to save their asses, the mentality is the same in many places: guns are dangerous, safety violations will hurt a career, shooting costs money, etc., etc., etc., This fear or ignorance about guns isn't limited to LEO's, the NYPD, the military...it is across the board. The M16/ M4 family takes hits for not being reliable in bad conditions, but honestly how many units are religiously maintaining their weapons? A thorough cleaning, keeping the bolt lubed, cleaning when 5 minutes are available...those kinds of things. The Air Force will only allow a weapon to be cleaned in a specific location at a specific time every week. Some rotations don't even bother to inspect the weapons, only to check that Airman Snuffy signed in; some, not all.

The mentality, the fear, the worry, the inflated sense of one's capabilities....they exist across the board. Leadership may not have the money for training rounds, but they should have the moral fiber to close the gaps in other areas. The fact is, they don't and I question if they even try. To put it in another light, think about if you simply carried a weapon as much as you spent in the motor pool performing PMCS' or sweeping the concrete.

This comes down to leadership and a "corporate culture" which is also defined by? Bueller?

Leadership.

 

[0699]

Fast forward to the present and soldiers/ airmen in Afghanistan. I've seen weapons "frozen" closed because of the accumulated dirt, weapons shipped over with missing firing pins or cracked bolt carriers, and many, many more which were utterly filthy. Many/ most of these folks are fobbits, I get that, but quite a few others were part of an RCT trolling for mines. They left the wire daily and their weapons BEFORE a patrol looked like ass. I've also seen other units with the same fobbit MOS' and their weapons were almost silver from the constant cleaning; gear which was worn, but not dirty.

My first combat deployment, as a corporal, I had a "policy" that the first thing we (my team) did every morning, even before breakfast, was clean our weapons, polish our boots, wash & shave. I then inspected the team to make sure these things were all done correctly. Every day. I was continually amazed by the number of my peers and leaders that told me I was being "too hard". They would all admit I was right, but they wouldn't demand the same from their teams. I honestly believe that America has a MAJOR leadership problem. It's better in the military than on the outside world, but even a lot of military supervisors are (afraid/lazy?) to establish a standard, inspect to a standard, maintain the standard. The worst thing is I don't know how to fix it. :wall:

The mentality, the fear, the worry, the inflated sense of one's capabilities....they exist across the board. Leadership may not have the money for training rounds, but they should have the moral fiber to close the gaps in other areas. The fact is, they don't and I question if they even try. To put it in another light, think about if you simply carried a weapon as much as you spent in the motor pool performing PMCS' or sweeping the concrete.

This comes down to leadership and a "corporate culture" which is also defined by? Bueller?

Leadership.

Another thing that drives me crazy. Just because you went to a course three years ago doesn't mean you're proficient.

 

[Gunz]

...Fast forward to the present and soldiers/ airmen in Afghanistan. I've seen weapons "frozen" closed because of the accumulated dirt, weapons shipped over with missing firing pins or cracked bolt carriers, and many, many more which were utterly filthy. Many/ most of these folks are fobbits, I get that, but quite a few others were part of an RCT trolling for mines. They left the wire daily and their weapons BEFORE a patrol looked like ass...

I'm shocked...I guess I shouldn't be but I am.

But not of the mentality that guns are dangerous and we wouldn't want any safety violations so make sure the Marines at the Beirut Barracks gate keep their weapons unloaded.

 

[DA SWO]

NYPD has 10? 12? lb pulls on their triggers.
I wonder if the same rules apply to the Mayor's PSD?

 

[0699]

^^^

12 pounds.

 

[AWP]

I'm shocked...I guess I shouldn't be but I am.

But not of the mentality that guns are dangerous and we wouldn't want any safety violations so make sure the Marines at the Beirut Barracks gate keep their weapons unloaded.

Something that bothered me more: The Air Force camp on Bagram until about...2006 or 2007, was a closed camp with Security Forces manning ECP's. You had to present your ID and show your business with the Wing to even be admitted to Camp Cunningham. Periodically, the airmen at the ECP's would check every weapon entering or exiting the camp. I asked one of the NCO's about this once and his response was...frightening. Roughly 10% of the weapons checked had a round in the chamber with the safety off. Roughly 30% of all weapons had some safety violation. Back then, shoulder hoslters were horizontal, so we were constantly flagged by almost anyone with a pistol. At that ttime, the number of people who lived/ worked in Camp Cunningham was around 500-600 and the AFSF airmen ran these checks every few weeks or so. Now think about it, every time they checked weapons roughly 10% were loaded with the safety off. That tells me people were constantly playing with their weapons because you'd expct those numbers to decline over time if these were one-off incidents.

I've witnessed airmen conducting "quick draw" competitions indoors with other airmen judging the winner, listened to airmen play with their weapon while taking a dump...bad, bad practices.

I know the other branches have their own problems, so I'm not attempting to pick on the AF, just provide some numbers. I can bet if the AF has this problem, other services do as well. It goes back to leadership and a culture which carries a weapon for a living but is afraid of or "disrespectful to" that weapon. Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol? And those stories are instructors or LEO's? We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.

 

[Grunt]

...We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.

There is much truth in your entire post, but this part stuck out to me the most. You are absolutely correct. There are many out there who tote a weapon that are either totally afraid of it or treat it like a toy and they are in combat or LE related fields. It's sad to acknowledge.

I hate to even have to write this, but I have witnessed people in both positions -- military and law enforcement -- that I have actually witnessed looking down the barrel of a loaded weapon in order to see if it was loaded.

I was embarrassed for them. Truly saddening...and, maddening at the same time.

 

[Gunz]

There is much truth in your entire post, but this part stuck out to me the most. You are absolutely correct. There are many out there who tote a weapon that are either totally afraid of it or treat it like a toy and they are in combat or LE related fields. It's sad to acknowledge.

I hate to even have to write this, but I have witnessed people in both positions -- military and law enforcement -- that I have actually witnessed looking down the barrel of a loaded weapon in order to see if it was loaded.

I was embarrassed for them. Truly saddening...and, maddening at the same time.

Most of the flagrant dumbass gun moments I've seen have been on civilian ranges. Proper weapons handling was so paramount in the Marine units I served with, I can't recall seeing anything that unsafe...but maybe things have changed. I was TDY as a range NCO at the Naval Amphib Base, Little Creek, and they were bussing in midshipmen from USNA for M16 fam-fire and organic weapons demos. We saw not a few violations amongst the middies but were quick and unmerciful in our chastisement