FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division

[0699]

I know the other branches have their own problems, so I'm not attempting to pick on the AF, just provide some numbers. I can bet if the AF has this problem, other services do as well. It goes back to leadership and a culture which carries a weapon for a living but is afraid of or "disrespectful to" that weapon. Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol? And those stories are instructors or LEO's? We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.

IIRC, in Col Hackworth's book About Face, when he was a recruit battalion commander at Ft Lewis during the Vietnam War, his recruits had a blank round chambered at all times. Made it very easy to find out who was violating the weapons handling principles and served as an instant reinforcer of training.

 

[busdriver]

Roughly 10% of the weapons checked had a round in the chamber with the safety off.

This is actually how the AF trains people to carry the M9, I know it's in conflict with the Army's policy. That said, there are more than one DAO pistol with no external safety. I realize there is a difference with hammer spur vs no hammer spur. I think the M9 is a terrible design wrt to the manual safety.

Back then, shoulder holsters were horizontal, so we were constantly flagged by almost anyone with a pistol.

This is something that drives me nuts, why is a horizontal holster flagging people? It's in a holster, the trigger is blocked. Unless you think guns go bang on their own, there is no danger. That said, I think shoulder holsters shouldn't be allowed unless they are worn correctly, that is to say tied to a belt otherwise they're just flapping weights begging to send a pistol flying across the room.

Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol?

Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.

I left the last two snippets together because you could not be more right. I took a class and the instructor basically said he could judge a person's weapons skill by handing them a pistol and seeing what they would do with it. 4 seconds, that's all it took to judge their skill level.

 

[DA SWO]

Something that bothered me more: The Air Force camp on Bagram until about...2006 or 2007, was a closed camp with Security Forces manning ECP's. You had to present your ID and show your business with the Wing to even be admitted to Camp Cunningham. Periodically, the airmen at the ECP's would check every weapon entering or exiting the camp. I asked one of the NCO's about this once and his response was...frightening. Roughly 10% of the weapons checked had a round in the chamber with the safety off. Roughly 30% of all weapons had some safety violation. Back then, shoulder hoslters were horizontal, so we were constantly flagged by almost anyone with a pistol. At that ttime, the number of people who lived/ worked in Camp Cunningham was around 500-600 and the AFSF airmen ran these checks every few weeks or so. Now think about it, every time they checked weapons roughly 10% were loaded with the safety off. That tells me people were constantly playing with their weapons because you'd expct those numbers to decline over time if these were one-off incidents.

I've witnessed airmen conducting "quick draw" competitions indoors with other airmen judging the winner, listened to airmen play with their weapon while taking a dump...bad, bad practices.

I know the other branches have their own problems, so I'm not attempting to pick on the AF, just provide some numbers. I can bet if the AF has this problem, other services do as well. It goes back to leadership and a culture which carries a weapon for a living but is afraid of or "disrespectful to" that weapon. Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol? And those stories are instructors or LEO's? We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.

How many ND's were there?
AFSF carries with a round in the chamber, safety off in most locals.
Ironic that a cop would bitch about guys/gals doing what they do.
My other question, why issue weapons if you don't want me to have ammo in it?

 

[AWP]

This is actually how the AF trains people to carry the M9, I know it's in conflict with the Army's policy. That said, there are more than one DAO pistol with no external safety. I realize there is a difference with hammer spur vs no hammer spur. I think the M9 is a terrible design wrt to the manual safety.

This is something that drives me nuts, why is a horizontal holster flagging people? It's in a holster, the trigger is blocked. Unless you think guns go bang on their own, there is no danger. That said, I think shoulder holsters shouldn't be allowed unless they are worn correctly, that is to say tied to a belt otherwise they're just flapping weights begging to send a pistol flying across the room.

How many ND's were there?
AFSF carries with a round in the chamber, safety off in most locals.
Ironic that a cop would bitch about guys/gals doing what they do.
My other question, why issue weapons if you don't want me to have ammo in it?

I'm tracking with what you Gents are saying, but I'm surprised the AF teaches that and then goes to great lengths here to "unlearn" their own training. Sure, this is a Joint environment and the Army sets the rules, but a loaded chamber and the safety is off? We're seeing the odd airman here with a weapons qual waiver. Back when they brought weapons from their home station some deployed with weapons which could not fire. The military in general does a horrible job in teaching the use of a pistol and in many units a mediocre job with a rifle/ carbine. We're also taught not to point a weapon at something we don't want to shoot, but I understand the point about a holster. I've also seen soldiers and airmen dorking around with weapons, holstered or not. When we have a poor to nonexistent "system" for training I think we should be nervous. People can be real dumbasses and no service has cornered the market on intelligence. I understand where you're both coming from, but I think if you stood next to a clearing barrel over here you'd understand mine. We are sending gobs and gobs of fobbits over here and arming them, but only providing the barest of training.

ND's? I only know of a few, but those are hushed up. I happened to find out about one a few weeks ago, but in general those aren't discussed. To put it into perspective, the command used to brief us on the number of sexual assaults and drug busts, but any official word on an ND is like a unicorn or Bigfoot sighting. That goes for all of the branches out here. Once in a blue moon the Army would send out a safety gram with a few incidents, but even that practice has stopped.

I've seen too many utterly ridiculous weapons-related events to believe the DoD is properly educating our servicemembers. I'm not afraid of a firearm, but I am afraid of a firearm in the hands of most people, servicemembers included.

 

[x SF med]

Even though I am fairly proficient in the use of firearms, they still scare me enough to treat them with respect.
I have a dao pistol with no external safeties that is always in condition 0 (loaded, locked, one in the chamber, all it takes is a trigger pull and BOOM), in a holster generally where I can get at it or on my person. Yes, I worry about AD/ND, but (knock wood) I haven't had one. I refuse to get innured, complacent or lazy about my fear of what these tools can and will do. I think that's the key, healthy respect of the capabilities of that tool sitting on your hip or on a sling over your shoulder... and yes, fear of what it can wreak.

 

[Gunz]

Anyone in the military issued a firearm would benefit greatly from having a couple of rabid, frothing, screaming DIs or PMIs ripping their ears off and stomping their goofy shit at the slightest most infinitesimal safety violation...at the mere suggestion of a safety violation. It's a lesson that lasts a lifetime. From what I'm reading here, some services need to ramp up and de-pussify their firearms instruction before they start passing out free guns to every snuffy that comes along.

If I were king there'd be one, tough-assed uncompromising standardized firearms training program for all military members...and LEOs too. And if you failed you'd never get within 10 feet of a loaded weapon.

 

[pardus]

Anyone in the military issued a firearm would benefit greatly from having a couple of rabid, frothing, screaming DIs or PMIs ripping their ears off and stomping their goofy shit at the slightest most infinitesimal safety violation...at the mere suggestion of a safety violation. It's a lesson that lasts a lifetime. From what I'm reading here, some services need to ramp up and de-pussify their firearms instruction before they start passing out free guns to every snuffy that comes along.

If I were king there'd be one, tough-assed uncompromising standardized firearms training program for all military members...and LEOs too. And if you failed you'd never get within 10 feet of a loaded weapon.

I regularly tell people if I see their finger inside the trigger guard when they are not about to fire their weapon that I'll break it. Most know that I won't actually do that, but it's a kind of shocking/amusing statement that re-focuses people that maybe complacent/lazy.

 

[Gunz]

I regularly tell people if I see their finger inside the trigger guard when they are not about to fire their weapon that I'll break it. Most know that I won't actually do that, but it's a kind of shocking/amusing statement that re-focuses people that maybe complacent/lazy.

I think people need to be shocked. At the rifle range at Parris Island when you walked anywhere the barrel of that rifle had to be pointed downrange. Deviate from that direction by a degree and you literally get tackled by two or three PMIs. And then you get their spittle in both ears. When I was teaching my boys firearms safety, they saw a side of me they never want to see again. Their ears are still ringing. But I'd trust any of them with a hot weapon. And they're all great shots.

 

[Grunt]

...Their ears are still ringing...

Consistency with that goes a long way. My son grew up with a very healthy appreciation for firearms. Even though he is now 20 years old, he still acts like good ole dad is near him when he has a weapon out. One of his friends that he shoots with has often told me about the way my son handles weapons and makes him (the friend) handle his when they are together.

It's always nice to know that they retain the things you have taught them.

 

[x SF med]

I have alienated a couple of people when running an impromptu range.... a firing line was set, there was a Range Officer (rotating, if you were RO, you did not fire)... and trust me.... the people around us were scary enough that we left... we should have had a clue, when they asked us why we had red bandana's tied to the bumpers and antennae of our trucks and why when we were only 20 feet from each other we had radios ... they had never heard of hot range flags... or downrange communication. Then they saw my aidbag....:wall::wall:

 

[Brill]

I have alienated a couple of people when running an impromptu range.... a firing line was set, there was a Range Officer (rotating, if you were RO, you did not fire)... and trust me.... the people around us were scary enough that we left... we should have had a clue, when they asked us why we had red bandana's tied to the bumpers and antennae of our trucks and why when we were only 20 feet from each other we had radios ... they had never heard of hot range flags... or downrange communication. Then they saw my aidbag....:wall::wall:

Those were my same thoughts first time I shot with my attached ODA: lane one changing targets while lane two firing away.
Second thought: I'm actually going to make it out fine cuz these MFers are going to kill ALL the bad guys...and they did!

 

[pardus]

Those were my same thoughts first time I shot with my attached ODA: lane one changing targets while lane two firing away.
Second thought: I'm actually going to make it out fine cuz these MFers are going to kill ALL the bad guys...and they did!

That is the shit I like and want! Danger close shooting and not giving a shit, because the guys doing it are good to go, so no worries!

 

[Brill]

That is the shit I like and want! Danger close shooting and not giving a shit, because the guys doing it are good to go, so no worries!

The only thing I ever worried about was not cutting the mustard with those guys. Not everyone likes when a guy older than the TS shows up in the team room and announces "I'm your attachment." My kids were older than some of the SF guys.

I carried a 9mm (no hijack!) and trained with service ammo.

 

[pardus]

The only thing I ever worried about was not cutting the mustard with those guys. Not everyone likes when a guy older than the TS shows up in the team room and announces "I'm your attachment." My kids were older than some of the SF guys.

I carried a 9mm (no hijack!) and trained with service ammo.

Interesting. I grew up in a time when (generally) the older the guy, the better/more experienced he was, and therefor the more trusted he was (because he would be gone/kicked out, if he was not).

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

Good read and interesting twist that the officer went to a 9mm from a 45acp.

Excluding a few jumbo magnum pistol loads, pistol rds suck for gunfights.

I agree with the officers lessons learned. Extra ammo, head shots, and train your arse off...

 

[Kettenhund]

I read the FBI artical on their reversal and new acceptance of the 9mm. I remember nearly 2 decades ago when they abandoned the 9mm and were pushing the 10mm!

I've always been a fan of the 9mm. Easy to shoot, a slew of bullet weights, great capacity, and a huge assortment of quality manufacturers to choose from!

A few years ago our department considered retiring our Sig Sauer 228's. They were 12+ years old and the tritium sights were dying. I got a great trade in price from Sig toward the purchase of new P229's. Really wanted to go 357 Sig but our Chief said, "9mm, good enough for the Kaiser, good enough for us"! I swear, he really said that! I agree that the 9mm is a great round but there have been many new improvements in defense rounds since 1909! Long story short, I did not get the department the 357Sig, we carry 9mm 229's and I'm not sulking. Qualifying a few members with the ultra hot 357 Sig would have been problematic and rounds would have been more expensive. I preach shot placement during training.

As for qualifications, we carry 124gr. Federal Hydra- shock but for trading we use Eagle 124gr. Round nose. A bit cheaper but more difficult to find than the hollow point.

 

[Etype]

Really wanted to go 357 ... I did not get the department the 357Sig...

9mm overpressure rounds can do everything a .357 Sig can do. You can get 1,400 FPS 125 gr 9mm. All you'd need is a new recoil spring, which is cheap.

 

[HOLLiS]

Everybody can shoot a 9mm. As the caliber increase the % of people who can shoot becomes smaller.

.357 is a signature round. .38 Super has been around for a long time.

I really like 10mm, even my daughter is good with it.

 

[x SF med]

I carried my issue .45 in the service, and I like .45. I also shot the TT33 in 7.62P Soviet, used a .38 Special, used the Makarov 9mm short, went without a pistol for a long time, then won an Xd9 and have kept the 9mm as the pistol round (I now have 3 different 9mm pistols) because I like having a single round choice for pistol in a break in situatin, I don't have to mess with making sure mags are the right ones caliber wise, all 3 pistols use much differently shaped mags so they don't get missed up. A friend once showed up to the house who had loaded the wrong rounds into his 9mm, he had a .40 round mixed in.

 

[HOLLiS]

I carried my issue .45 in the service, and I like .45. I also shot the TT33 in 7.62P Soviet, used a .38 Special, used the Makarov 9mm short, went without a pistol for a long time, then won an Xd9 and have kept the 9mm as the pistol round (I now have 3 different 9mm pistols) because I like having a single round choice for pistol in a break in situatin, I don't have to mess with making sure mags are the right ones caliber wise, all 3 pistols use much differently shaped mags so they don't get missed up. A friend once showed up to the house who had loaded the wrong rounds into his 9mm, he had a .40 round mixed in.

I think that is the issue for any agency, who will be carrying it. The lowest common denomination comes to mind.