FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division

Etype said:
9mm overpressure rounds can do everything a .357 Sig can do. You can get 1,400 FPS 125 gr 9mm. All you'd need is a new recoil spring, which is cheap.
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Etype, yes, +P and +P+ really get a 124gr projectile moving nicely. Unfortunately "the boss" truly believes todays semi autos were not made to handle the increased wear of the hotter round. Two or three years ago we were having a hell of a time getting out Federal Hydra-shock so we switched out to the Winchester +p Ranger T series (non coated Talon). The "boss" was on a forced sabbatical at the time so the head firearms instructor and I made a judgement call. When he returned he had a cow!! Yeah, seriously!!! Don't get me started on why we can't have M4's in 556. We are stuck with 11.5 inch barreled Colt 9mm carbines.
 
Ketten, Chamber pressure are important or should not be ignore. Depending on how the pistol is built is a factor on what it can take in terms of chamber pressures. I would think rather than taking a old round and beefing it up, use a more powerful round.

Recoil is s simple function, for every action there is a opposite and equal reaction. Bullet weight X Speed is the recoil (approximate terms).

Issue with over loaded 9mm rounds, is that those rounds may find themselves in older pistols that will not take the pressure.

Best example that I can think of right now, is the 45-70. There are three different loads depending on the rifle that will shoot them. Commercial loads are all group I, the weakest load. Group II will disassemble a trapdoor springfield. Group III will disassemble a lever action Marlin. (close to 460 Win Mag Loads)

LEO in the US are more roving secretaries than pistolarrios. Most will never fire their side arm in their careers. So agencies needs something that everyone can shoot.

Ranger Psych said:
Well, I could see it if they were Hydra's using glock magazines. Easier overall supply chain then, but that'd be about it. I still like my .45 but that boils down to personal preference more than anything.
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I would think it is not personal preference, In your case you have training and skills. Most LEO do not have anything close to that. .45 is a great round but a lot of people just can not shoot it.
 
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To an extent. I can pick up just about anything and do reasonably well with it... but I've been shooting my USP's for... hell, since about 1999 thereabouts. First was a .40, then .45 from there on. I actually should do some parts replacement on my Expert since while it's not worn out, it'd be preventative maintenance. Slide spring's got well around if not over 200k on it at this point since I bought it in 2001, but it still cooks with no issues performing... it's hard to not abide "ain't broke don't fix" but I'd rather swap them out then have something break, ya know?

The only thing I don't like is Glocks personally. The grip angle is just not what I'm used to nor is it an angle I ever liked plus the overall controls manufacture/location. They're fine weapons that do the job intended, but at the same time I sorta laugh when I see Salient 4k cost glocks... it's like lipstick on a pig, to me... whole nice thing about a glock is that it's cheap, it functions well, it's reliable... then you go swap everything out and add a zero to the price tag before the decimal point.. doesn't make sense given the net performance result (that I have seen, anyway) versus stock.

I also realize that .45 is a big round with a relatively long recoil impulse. A larger, heavier weapon with a solid grip by the individual manipulating it is going to negate that and let you keep repeated rounds on target. 9mm is arguably much more forgiving due to a lighter everything, and also arguably "makes up" for "needing to be accurate" with a significantly higher round count per magazine. I've got 13 rounds out the gate and 12 on the reload, putting shit where it counts is paramount.
 
That is the other issue ergonomics. We all do not wear the same shoe size. Manufactures have finally figured that out, notice the fit kit that comes with some. Unfortunately. my understanding that for liability reasons agencies need to stick with one flavor of side arm. Lawyers can make a ice cream social into a miserable experience.
 
HOLLiS said:
That is the other issue ergonomics. We all do not wear the same shoe size. Manufactures have finally figured that out, notice the fit kit that comes with some. Unfortunately. my understanding that for liability reasons agencies need to stick with one flavor of side arm. Lawyers can make a ice cream social into a miserable experience.
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Which is why I don't shoot Glock. The grip just doesn't work for me.
Ended up with M&P .45, but I am thinking about going back to 9MM.
 
@HOLLiS, @Kettenhund,

When you switch to a higher pressure round, the only thing you need to change on most guns is the recoil spring- which will mitigate the slamming to the rear.

I'm not aware of any differences between the metal or thickness of Glock 9mm or .357 barrel. I also haven't heard much of Glock 9mm chambers failing in USPSA where they are reloaded to meet major PF, that problem is seen more often in 9mm 1911s.
 
Etype, I'd gladly change out recoil springs yearly, just to be on the safe side if we authorized +P rounds. Recoil springs are cheap in comparison to what a bit more velocity gives you in the 9mm. Unfortunately, that is just not going to happen for us so we use what we use to the best of our ability.

Every round we fire has a potential lawsuit attached to it so we damn well better be able to put them where they need to go.

Hollis, I will agree that a +P or a +P+ round can do damage to an older weapon. The approximate service life of a duty pistol is 10 years or so. If someone wants to shoot a +P+ round out of there WW2 Hi-Power or Luger, personally I'd think that would be sheer stupidity and would attempt to prevent them form doing so.

In closing, I take offense to your insinuation of most LEO's as being "roving secretaries". I tried to let it slide but I just can't. I go t0 work everyday and having the burden of bringing a weapon into every situation I'm involved in. By your own analogy the same could be said about most military members, although I'd never have the gall to say it, let alone think it. As a verified military member here, I'd think you'd have a bit more appreciation for what we do while you are off at war. We keep you family safe and have no hesitation put our life on the line for strangers on a daily basis. For the most part the average military member at war knows who the enemy is. For LEO, we don;t have that luxury or the luxury of engaging the enemy at a distance . Most of our enemies we can see the whites of their eyes and smell their breath while we're engaged. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, pun intended, that the vast majority of military members here do not share your opinion. If I'm wrong then this is not the forum for me.
 
Ketten, The roving secretary comment was made by a person who was a Deputy for the LA Sheriffs. BTW I was in LEO. Also later in life I had oversight of a PD. I have known many LEOs, COP and Sheriffs. I have a lot of respect for the men and women who serve their community.

When I was getting my degree in LEO and going through the academy, the stats at the time, was (probably applies to most military people too) A officer during their career will never fire their side arm. The PF that I had oversight on, When a officer was starting their shift they already had over 8 hours of paper work that needed to be done. They are also over worked. That has not changed since I was working in that field.

One of MOSs in the Marines was 0311, A person asked me what that was, I said Mull...... Humor never leave home without it.
 
Hollis,

I called you out in public so I'll apologize the same way. I'm sorry for jumping on you but if you are going to quote someone, you need to cite the quote or it will certainly look like it originated from you.

My sense of humor is very important to me. While it's not on par with my credibility, it's not ranked far from it. Without being able to laugh daily, I could not effectively do what I do.

OK, back to the FBI and their return to the 9mm. I say Yea!! That's not a knock on any of the other available calibers.
 
Kettenhund said:
In closing, I take offense to your insinuation of most LEO's as being "roving secretaries". I tried to let it slide but I just can't. I go t0 work everyday and having the burden of bringing a weapon into every situation I'm involved in. By your own analogy the same could be said about most military members, although I'd never have the gall to say it, let alone think it. As a verified military member here, I'd think you'd have a bit more appreciation for what we do while you are off at war. We keep you family safe and have no hesitation put our life on the line for strangers on a daily basis. For the most part the average military member at war knows who the enemy is. For LEO, we don;t have that luxury or the luxury of engaging the enemy at a distance . Most of our enemies we can see the whites of their eyes and smell their breath while we're engaged. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, pun intended, that the vast majority of military members here do not share your opinion. If I'm wrong then this is not the forum for me.
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Dude, take a deep breath and limit your Grossman reading to once a week and you'll be okay. :rolleyes:
 
I actually agree with the roving secretary analogy.

I'll go further than the accurate statement that the vast majority of cops never fire a shot in anger and say many never even hear one. Truth is, especially in small towns but even in big cities many officers won't even draw their pistol in the line of duty.

None of which, by the way, impugns the honor of someone who pins on a badge.
 
policemedic said:
I actually agree with the roving secretary analogy.

I'll go further than the accurate statement that the vast majority of cops never fire a shot in anger and say many never even hear one. Truth is, especially in small towns but even in big cities many officers won't even draw their pistol in the line of duty.

None of which, by the way, impugns the honor of someone who pins on a badge.
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I think this is important because the media is trying to paint cops as blood thirsty killers. They are NOT!
 
Started my 25th. In patrol pointed my pistol towards many. In swat, looked through glass at a couple. LEO's dont put on the badge with the intent to shoot or harm anyone. However, with their actions comes the response necessary to stop them.

Back in topic, 9mm is being looked at in an agency I know due to them consolidating into a round that all can shoot. Currently, they allow anything 9mm to 45acp. Plus, supply duty and training rounds.....
 
DA SWO said:
NYPD has 10? 12? lb pulls on their triggers.
I wonder if the same rules apply to the Mayor's PSD?
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12 lb and I doubt it. Politicians always seem to think what applies to everyone else doesn't apply to them. Just my 2 cents YMMV.
 

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