The Facts and the Danger Behind the BLM Movement

[Kraut783]

Totally agree....and depends on the State, of course. States are getting better at drug laws that makes sense...but the "War on Drug" days of the 80's was insane and way too strict. Granted.... the gang violence during the 80's and early 90's because of that new money making drug, crack cocaine, was a crazy time and fueled the strict drug laws of the time. The violence, death and destroyed families during that time was mind numbing.

 

[Red Flag 1]

You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.

I don't know about other states, but in Va there is a "Drug Court". It is aimed not so much at the dealer as it is the user. Persons who are arrested for drug posession, without intent to distribute, are handled a little more leniently. If the defendant will agree to a professionally conducted detox, and treatment program, charges will be set aside. The aim is to rehabilitate the user, and not punish them. The programs include detox, professional counciling, and group therapy, random drug screens, and for those with a DUI in the mix, an ignition interlock is installed in their vehicle.

The programs have a modest success rate, around 30% success for the first time offender. It keeps the user out of the prison system, and in some cases can lead to employment that otherwise would be difficult to find. I'm not sure how many bites of the apple people get. Since relapse is one of the hallmarks of addiction, the courts will sometimes allow a couple of times to get further treatment.

 

[Ranger Psych]

You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.

Maybe your concern might be better placed with why you think mandatory sentences disproportionately affect minorities. Since, you know, to get a mandatory sentence its sorta mandatory to commit a crime.............. just saying

 

[Etype]

You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.

If there was a mandatory prison sentence for driving the wrong way down the highway, guess what... I WOULDN'T DO IT!!!

But of course, I wouldn't do it anyway, because it's illegal to begin with.

Crimes with mandatory prison sentences disproportionately target IDIOTS who know the penalties exist, yet still commit those crimes.

 

[TLDR20]

Maybe it is because I look at drugs as a public health issue not a criminal one. Addiction is a terrible thing. But that is just my privilege speaking, I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

If you look at the crimes that carry mandatory sentencing, and who they affect it quickly becomes obvious what the point of the laws are. As I have posted before just the difference between crack cocaine, and powder cocaine demonstrates this difference.

http://famm.org/Repository/Files/Chart 841--Fed Drug MMs 8.6.12.pdf

The War on Drugs(or personal freedom) is terrible for many reasons. One it disproportionately targets low income blacks, two it creates a war on the citizens of our country, three drug addiction is a health problem, best treated by health professionals.

 

[Gunz]

Maybe it is because I look at drugs as a public health issue not a criminal one. Addiction is a terrible thing. But that is just my privilege speaking, I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

Yeah, but you're talking about addiction, and I agree with your first two sentences. Pushing is another matter, IMV.

What happens to a lot of kids is they start dealing at a young age and the money roles in. They get busted and they're back on the street dealing in less than a day. You're 16, 17 or 18 and you're making $500 or more a week?? Who needs school? You get busted and released 2 or 3 times a year, maybe get a month in JDC, some probation...the money makes it worth the risk. You start packing for protection so now you risk gun and possession with intent charges. You keep doing the crime, you keep getting in trouble and after 8 or 9 court appearances the judges start to lose patience with your bullshit. So you get a a year in JDC and a warning from the Bench that if you fuck up one more time you're going to big-boy prison. And inevitably, that's where you end up doing a mandatory sentence.

 

[TLDR20]

Mandatory sentences have nothing to do with prints, intent to distribute or anything else. They are mandatory sentences, that could go to anyone caught with drugs. There are many examples of judges lamenting mandatory sentencing as it removes subjectiveness from criminal courts.

In the meth corridor of Iowa, a federal judge comes face to face with the reality of congressionally mandated sentencing.

This is part of an entire series that details the "Drug War"

 

[AWP]

The War on Drugs(or personal freedom) is terrible for many reasons. One it disproportionately targets low income blacks, two it creates a war on the citizens of our country, three drug addiction is a health problem, best treated by health professionals.

The War on Drugs is one of several significant low points during the Reagan presidency. It is a garbage idea that pandered to fear and paranoia. With that said, I support mandatory sentencing because it "removes subjectiveness from criminal courts." Look at the Brock Turner case, mandatory sentencing wouldn't allow the judge to let him off with a relatively light sentence. If certain demographics are affected more then that's too bad. Perhaps the mandatory lengths should be re-evaluated and adjusted, but crime is crime.

None of this addresses "prison for profit" which is related but a stand alone issue. I only mention it because it has some overlap in this topic's Venn diagram and I recognize it as a substantial problem.

 

[CDG]

I agree with TLDR that drugs should not be a criminal issue. I think it should all be legalized and taxed, and the chips will fall where they may. That being said, they're not currently legal, so I have zero sympathy for people who end up in prison multiple times, or for longer than they believe they should be, because of a drug charge.

 

[RackMaster]

If BLM doesn't want to be labelled extremist in any way and lumped in with the "kill a cop" chanters; then THEY need to address it. They created the monster and are doing nothing about it. But I think that's what they want. They are anti-establishment anarchists. If they won't clean up theiron supporters, then they reap what the filth sows. The founders look up to Assata Shakur, a convicted cop killer; that says a lot of theironic mentality.

Now as for drug crime, addictions and mandatory minimum sentences. Minor marijuana possession should be legal and treated exactly like alcohol. BUT with that we should put more effort into reducing use/abuse. It has legitimate medical benefits but that doesn't mean everyone should have access or use it. The big problem now is RX abuse anyway. Fentanyl and W18 OD is the most common one up here now.
Any other drug frankly should be treated more harshly, mandatory minimums and mandatory detox/rehab while in detention. They aren'the going to comply with treatment while out and even if they do, they haven't had enough time to change the behaviours associated with the addiction. Create drug jails, working on the rehabilitation model BUT if any other crime is involved; fuck them and lock them up with the other big boys and girls.

Making shit legal doesn't make it go away. Voluntary addiction recovery rates are very low and fall in line with @Red Flag 1's 30% success rate in drug court. If you remove the mandatory minimums, you're just creating a revolving door and destroying communities. We have a growing number of safe injection sites in Canada and all it's doing is making the junkies live longer and destroying neighboring communities. It's not fun having to watch for needles every where, for you or your kids. And knowing the health system gave them those needles. There's even a push to allow doctors to prescribe "clean" heroin. And drug abuse isn't isolated to a specific demographic. I live in a rural, predominantly white area and we have the same problems with drugs, cycles of OD's and associated crime; as any major centre does. Guess who's bringing it here?

 

[TLDR20]

Utilizing punishment as a means of drug treatment has pretty much shown that it doesn't work. Places where rehab is the primary factor, have better results. This is well researched and well known.

 

[AWP]

Utilizing punishment as a means of drug treatment has pretty much shown that it doesn't work. Places where rehab is the primary factor, have better results. This is well researched and well known.

I totally agree, but do it in jail minus the really small possession cases. Maybe we're talking past each other, I don't know, but we have to absolutely break the cycle yet we can't give violators a pass. There has to be consequences for their poor choices.

 

[Gunz]

I genuinely feel sorry for addicts. I truly do. But I have no sympathy for anybody who sells dangerous drugs. And I'm not talking about pot. I mean crack, meth, heroin, etc. They are in the business of fucking lives up and even if they get hooked on their own product, xin loi, baby, tough shit...maybe it's what you deserve.

 

[RackMaster]

Utilizing punishment as a means of drug treatment has pretty much shown that it doesn't work. Places where rehab is the primary factor, have better results. This is well researched and well known.

Maybe you glossed over what I wrote. That is exactly what has to be done but with no freedom. You release a crackhead for treatment and they'll walk out of the facility or show up high; they then are non compliant and can't/won't start treatment. What you're advocating for is essentially what @Red Flag 1 mentioned and at a 30% "success" rate (which is the same for self induced treatment) is not success. That other 70% will then do anything to get the next fix, it's a vicious cycle and being soft is not going to fix it. ANY mental health problem, including addictions is NO EXCUSE for criminal behaviour. They need continuous monitoring and care, no access whatsoever to ANY substance with addictive properties and that includes R/X drugs. You can't do it in the same community, their triggers, sources are available; most get shipped out to a different community; typically not the best either. Give them time and they find new sources; fail a substance test and are out on the street the same day.

This is not my opinion, this is from living with someone that works in the field and seeing it firsthand with family (who are white ). You want sources and I'll talk to my wife tonight, get back to you.

 

[TLDR20]

Have you read about Portugals program? It is pretty goddamn successful. They certainly don't do what you think is necessary.

https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Sheet_Portugal_Decriminalization_Feb2015.pdf

Best quote "
“We came to the conclusion that the criminal system was not best suited to deal with this situation... The best option should be referring them to treatment... We do not force or coerce anyone. If they are willing to go by themselves, it's because they actually want to, so the success rate is really high... We can surely say that decriminalization does not increase drug usage, and that decriminalization does not mean legalizing... It's still illegal to use drugs in Portugal — it's just not considered a crime. It's possible to deal with drug users outside the criminal system.”

 

[Red Flag 1]

Yeah, but you're talking about addiction, and I agree with your first two sentences. Pushing is another matter, IMV.

What happens to a lot of kids is they start dealing at a young age and the money roles in. They get busted and they're back on the street dealing in less than a day. You're 16, 17 or 18 and you're making $500 or more a week?? Who needs school? You get busted and released 2 or 3 times a year, maybe get a month in JDC, some probation...the money makes it worth the risk. You start packing for protection so now you risk gun and possession with intent charges. You keep doing the crime, you keep getting in trouble and after 8 or 9 court appearances the judges start to lose patience with your bullshit. So you get a a year in JDC and a warning from the Bench that if you fuck up one more time you're going to big-boy prison. And inevitably, that's where you end up doing a mandatory sentence.

There is a huge difference in dealing with drug peddlers, and users. The tough call is when the dealer is using his own product and is an addict.

For the drug dealers that wind up in jail for selling, it is really just the price of doing business. Prison stretches of five to ten years, becomes post graduate training really. They network with other dealers, and hone their trade even more. Some hook up with, and get "hired" by guys in the big leagues. It can put some on the path to a better non-drug life, but more often the road chosen is right back into dealing again.

The drug problem is so huge, and few see the direct link between crime and drugs. The best you can hope for is two things: 1.) No one in your family gets involved with drugs, and; 2.) You or someone in your family does not get robbed, and/or killed by someone looking for a way to get their drugs for that day.

There are just no clear cut solutions out their. Once hooked, beating the addiction is very hard. Do everything you can to keep your kids away from the drugs. Otherwise what @Ocoka One has described can be a very real event. Know what your kids are doing. Know their friends and what they are doing. Establish a closeness that allows your kids to talk with you about anything, without fear. Help them with their school problems, go to their ball games, find out what kind of peer group your kids run in. If you think you are OK with your kids, and they would never get involved with drugs, you are already in trouble. With my kids, and now my grand kids, I worry every day.

 

[RackMaster]

Have you read about Portugals program? It is pretty goddamn successful. They certainly don't do what you think is necessary.

https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Sheet_Portugal_Decriminalization_Feb2015.pdf

Best quote "
“We came to the conclusion that the criminal system was not best suited to deal with this situation... The best option should be referring them to treatment... We do not force or coerce anyone. If they are willing to go by themselves, it's because they actually want to, so the success rate is really high... We can surely say that decriminalization does not increase drug usage, and that decriminalization does not mean legalizing... It's still illegal to use drugs in Portugal — it's just not considered a crime. It's possible to deal with drug users outside the criminal system.”

I've read that before and I applaud them. I agree that we shouldn't be punitive with first time offender simple possession. I agree the war on drugs was a failure but we made our bed. It's bigger than just addictions now. Both our countries would need a complete overhaul of our health system, not just mental health. Eliminate/reeducate whole generations of health care providers that don't understand addictions are mental health to begin with. We would need to build and fund thousands of facilities along with the needed personnel. Then what do we do with the non compliant? Those that drugs is just part of their criminality. You're talking home invasions, assault, armed robbery, etc. either to buy the next fix or pay a debt to a dealer. We also have huge organized crime/gangs to deal with.

 

[Red Flag 1]

I've read that before and I applaud them. I agree that we shouldn't be punitive with first time offender simple possession. I agree the war on drugs was a failure but we made our bed. It's bigger than just addictions now. Both our countries would need a complete overhaul of our health system, not just mental health. Eliminate/reeducate whole generations of health care providers that don't understand addictions are mental health to begin with. We would need to build and fund thousands of facilities along with the needed personnel. Then what do we do with the non compliant? Those that drugs is just part of their criminality. You're talking home invasions, assault, armed robbery, etc. either to buy the next fix or pay a debt to a dealer. We also have huge organized crime/gangs to deal with.

What is hard to understand with drug addiction, is that it is often a symptom of something else that is going on. The drugs, and alcohol are mediums that provide good feelings that the user has not been able to find elsewhere. It is that hole in their life that the substance fills for them, that brings them back for more. For recreational use, unfortunately, it is a poor choice for enjoying life. To beat that drum one more time, know your kids, better than you know anything else in your life. The answer to stopping the addiction crisis starts at home. Failing that, other addicts that have found a way out, are the only ones who understand the disease well enough to help other addicts.

 

[TLDR20]

I've read that before and I applaud them. I agree that we shouldn't be punitive with first time offender simple possession. I agree the war on drugs was a failure but we made our bed. It's bigger than just addictions now. Both our countries would need a complete overhaul of our health system, not just mental health. Eliminate/reeducate whole generations of health care providers that don't understand addictions are mental health to begin with. We would need to build and fund thousands of facilities along with the needed personnel. Then what do we do with the non compliant? Those that drugs is just part of their criminality. You're talking home invasions, assault, armed robbery, etc. either to buy the next fix or pay a debt to a dealer. We also have huge organized crime/gangs to deal with.

Ok let's do that. We went to the moon, we can do this.

 

[Dienekes]

None of this addresses "prison for profit" which is related but a stand alone issue.

Now that giant slice of fail deserves its own major thread.