Ukraine - Russia Conflict

Quite the "border dispute". 20% of yet another country, not only occupied, but in this case even annexed and it would have been far worse, if Putin wasn't ( imo ) decicively mislead or hadn't misjudged Ukrainian and Western resolve. Remember, Russia made an opportunistic, if unsuccessful dash attempt to take Kyiv, topple the government and possibly occupy and divide, if not annex the whole of Ukraine. Even if we somehow whitewashed what happened thus far ( and we can't because it also includes massacres ) since fortunately, the worst case scenario was prevented, they are still trying to completely strip Ukraine their access to the Black Sea and industrial heartland. Let's also not forget about Crimea.
I mean, I get where you're coming from. But what fair deal could possibly be struck in the current political environment ? We are dealing with a fascist leader and nuclear power, who questioned the existence of whole countries and peoples on national broadcast. Whose rhetoric has been for many years, based around a "Greater Russia", consisting of ex Soviet enclaves and buffers, which now happen to comprise nations, that regained their independence from two tyrannic Russian entities, succeeded by another in 1991. Coupled with a society that since has been subjected to and manipulated by endless "holy Russia" vs the "satanic gay West" and whatnot other pseudo-religeous hate-mongering.
It's not like the West wasn't still talking to them. But at this point, Putin and Russia are refusing any compromise, that doesn't bend over and violate their victim. The other side may also think and act in influence spheres and exploitation, but that so called West is not the main reason why most of those countries chose to strife towards the Western world or at least be under NATO protection. It's Russia being Russia. They always had and still have their own twisted vision of border constellations and assertive, dominance hinged "diplomacy" and trade. We are just very lucky ( or perhaps very unlucky ), that Russia is governed by heavy corruption and in a relatively weak state, instead of becoming a genuine super power after the breakup, with lot more to offer and allies than the West.
We won't ever be able to strike fair deals with them under such circumstances. Not when they refuse to adjust their mindset and political goals to at least respect the basic souvereignity and rights of others. Who have every right to chose what they are alligned with, even if some Western actors thought their interests were inconsequential to their own or "the greater picture", and I get that. But once again, we are currently dealing with an entity, who makes impossible demands and is willing to use force when threats won't work. It's like trying to be the "nice guy" by striking compromising deals with a home invading bully, over the heads of the victims, in breach of existing laws. We can argue all day the about the Wests complicitness in it. But that's the situation we are in right now.

Define fair. Peace deals are never black and white. Especially when dealing with nuclear powers. There are no winners in this. And we're not going to overthrow Putin, that's a pipe dream.

The victims in this are the people of Ukraine, on both sides of this conflict. This, just like so many other conflicts in modern history, is the result of randomly drawing borders and ignoring ethnic separations. Or regime changes because leaders in, say America; know better than the people that live there.
Just split the country up again, East/West and call it a day. Build a new wall or DMZ and get on with the cold war, the Left so desperately wants. From initiating a civil war through regime change, under Obama, to Hillary promising war with Russia if elected and now full on proxy war. Because Putin invading, was not worried about the US that is led by an old man that needs to be in a dementia ward of some senior home. Or Europe that is Russia's Bitch.
 
Yeah... Russia needs to die. They've massacred fuckloads of civvies, destroyed the agricultural capacity for the worlds 5th largest grain exporter, and their fertilizer & energy shenanigans are going to cause hundreds of millions to die. (Scariest guess I've seen is 1.5 billion people, yes billion with a B.)

Not to mention the secondary effects of famine and everything else that will lead to numerous brushfire wars and global instability.

Fuck em.
 
Yeah... Russia needs to die. They've massacred fuckloads of civvies, destroyed the agricultural capacity for the worlds 5th largest grain exporter, and their fertilizer & energy shenanigans are going to cause hundreds of millions to die. (Scariest guess I've seen is 1.5 billion people, yes billion with a B.)

Not to mention the secondary effects of famine and everything else that will lead to numerous brushfire wars and global instability.

Fuck em.

While we're at it, let's bomb Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, China and everyone else not on the Western Xmas card list. This isn't Libya or Iraq. In this game of nuclear chicken, people in Europe and North America; are going to die.

Find someone to negotiate, both lose, and both sides build up on the new border. Then we deal with accountability and the consequences. There's no good side to pushing further conflict.
 
Define fair. Peace deals are never black and white. Especially when dealing with nuclear powers. There are no winners in this. And we're not going to overthrow Putin, that's a pipe dream.

The victims in this are the people of Ukraine, on both sides of this conflict. This, just like so many other conflicts in modern history, is the result of randomly drawing borders and ignoring ethnic separations. Or regime changes because leaders in, say America; know better than the people that live there.
Just split the country up again, East/West and call it a day. Build a new wall or DMZ and get on with the cold war, the Left so desperately wants. From initiating a civil war through regime change, under Obama, to Hillary promising war with Russia if elected and now full on proxy war. Because Putin invading, was not worried about the US that is led by an old man that needs to be in a dementia ward of some senior home. Or Europe that is Russia's Bitch.

For example, if both sides made concessions, agreed to something like the 1997 treaty, that guaranteed Russia and Ukraine would not attack eachother, use their territories to harm their respective security interests, and instead respect their borders and territorial integrity. Sounds mighty fair to me.
But this is nigh impossible now. Ukraine won't accept annexation of its territories and their choice of allies be dictated by anyone but themselves. While Russia will most likely not accept voluntarily ceding the occupied territories back to Ukraine ( especialy after annexing them ) and Ukraine becoming part of NATO. That's why I'm saying, like what compromise could possibly be made in the current environment, that anyone would agree to or consider fair.
I will also maintain, that peace with their neighbours, was never in Putins interest. NATO was not present in Ukraine, to justify their attack in 2014. Ukrainian territory was not used to harm Russian security interests. They seized Crimea, purely in fear of eventualy losing their leased naval base to a pro-Western Ukraine, and with that, also eliminated any prospect of NATO membership. Why not go a step further, send terrorists like Girkin to instigate a war of secession in as many regions as possible, while at it. So Putin can permanently destabilize the country and annex further lands to accomodate his "Greater Russia" plans.

I agree, but if we went that deep, why should only Ukraine be split ? The same would apply to Russia then, where they bomb people for even suggesting that. North Caucaus and other regions. Both countries are full with ethnic minorities, or every other country. Only that would be fair.
The problem is this: If peaceful referenda took place, without Russia invading, on top of instigating, organising and militarily supporting secessionism in Ukraine, then I'd be fine with the idea. But exactly that forceful bs is happening ( again ... since the Bolsheviks started it in the 1920s and before them the Russian Empire ) and we are thrown back to what you pointed out. Interfering powers, making such events anything but legitimate and morally justifiable.
There is complicity in Western involvment, sure. Europe wanted Ukraine to become part of their trade empire, instead of it remaining a permanent economic leverage for Russia and military buffer. Especialy before Putin could install a puppet. However, Western involvement or not, it were the Ukrainian people who made that decision, after Yanukovich ignored their will and even parliament votes, and Russia is the one who invaded with its military, inciting and organising a rebellion. Behaving like Russia does, because that's how Russia behaves and has been for centuries. They've been longer at that game than the modern Americas. From our POV, you could see this coming from miles away, with or without Western interference. We even warned them repeatedly after 2008.
 
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This might be an unpopular opinion and further stoke the thread drift, but we invaded the wrong country in 2003. Invading Iran might have had more short term pain in casualties, but long term gains elsewhere, including Russia. We really screwed the pooch there and I think it is one of many things that emboldened Putin and China.

Regardless...

The thing is with Russia, we aren't invading, no one's invading. Regime change will not only have to occur internally, but (more unpopular opinions) without a shred of US support. Russians are paranoid with a fantastic "they hate us because they ain't us so they all want to kill us" conspiracy hive mind. Natural paranoia was amped up to a factor of a gazillion under the Communists and we're kind of stupid if we think that doesn't persist. Any effort to topple Putin is almost doomed to fail because we can't be seen to support that revolt. At all. Not even covertly because our dumbasses can't keep our collective mouths shut. Leaks will happen, so we have to stay out of any internal revolt in Russia.

Plan B is you keep Pootie in check, he dies, and then you play 3D, 9D, deez nuts or whatever chess with his successor. We wash, rinse, repeat until the whole rotten affair topples...but we still have the nuclear question.

I often comment that I miss the Cold War, but that's not a joke or tongue-in-cheek commentary. I miss the Cold War because at least we could rely on MAD to keep the Soviets in check (among many other reasons to miss the Cold War). Russia isn't a monolithic state anymore as much as it is a dictatorship with minimal checks and balances.

Hell, I'm glad we have Biden instead of Harris. His minders can at least keep him on track like a go-cart at an amusement park. Minus that brain dead affirmative action hire press secretary (someone needs to say it because she didn't get that job on talent), we're probably getting the best we can out of the moment. Harris, she's so clueless, so arrogant, and so mouthy there is no telling where she would have us right now.

It is a liquid shit show, but it could be so much worse.
 
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I mean, I get where you're coming from. But what fair deal could possibly be struck in the current political environment ? ...
Snipped because hand wringing isn't useful ATT. I didn't say there is a fair deal. And I don't give two shits about the current political environment. Lack of diplomatic strength and leadership is what opened the door for Putin in the first place ("Well, I mean, if it's like a small incursion, maybe we won't do anything"). The "fairness" of the deal doesn't matter. America bringing people to the table does.
We excused ourselves from any negotiating position/ power with the first shipment of arms to the Ukraine. Any mediation will have to be led by a “non-belligerent” in this war. That rules out most of the West.
Disagree here. I appreciate the cynism, for sure, and I understand the feeling. Pivoting to engage in diplomacy is a non-kinetic effect we could garner to position ourselves in a better spot. We've armed shit tons of countries and then negotiated peace- President Trump did it for four years in the middle east and we had unprecedented peace.
It is a liquid shit show, but it could be so much worse.
Agree. And it will be unless someone does something. That someone should be us, if we just had the balls to lead.

Great discussion all around, ladies and gents. Except you, rabbit kid. Your ability to ruin a conversation with your drivel is unmatched.
 
Isn't a 'compromise' just a decision that neither side likes? Seems reasonable to me.

It looks like neither side are interested. And I question every day if we should be backing this horse as hard as we are with $ we don't have and weapons we need.
 
Snipped because hand wringing isn't useful ATT. I didn't say there is a fair deal. And I don't give two shits about the current political environment. Lack of diplomatic strength and leadership is what opened the door for Putin in the first place ("Well, I mean, if it's like a small incursion, maybe we won't do anything"). The "fairness" of the deal doesn't matter. America bringing people to the table does.

Okay and I agree. I also want diplomacy to solve this war as quickly as possible to prevent further suffering. I don't wish the Ukrainians to be forced giving up their territory and homes, while Russia gets away with it. Ultimately though, whatever terms the Ukrainian people accept or whatever decision they make, regardless of wheter we like it or not, it will be their choice and we have to respect that. If they are happy with losing Crimea and Donbas, than that's simply how it is. But if on the other hand, no compromise can be found, even if America took the strong leading role in negotiations, than ( at least imo ) they deserve our contineous support. At least as long as we can bear.
 
Lack of diplomatic strength and leadership is what opened the door for Putin in the first place ("Well, I mean, if it's like a small incursion, maybe we won't do anything").

Fully agree with this take. Our political Chess with Russia over the past decade has basically been a lot of talk and finger wagging, but not really establishing a "line" for taking them to task.

The annexation of Crimea, the Wagner Group (which is basically a Russian NGO anyways) attacking US troops, etc; our Political leaders have either been weak, ineffective, or just uninterested at trying to reel this shit in diplomatically.
 
Crimea ain't Russian. Outside of a few things that occurred like battles that involved the British. Crimea went from s backwater with no infrastructure to a vacation metropolis after Kruschev "gave" it to Ukraine.

Started off Greek and remained so for most of its history, even when other Europeans settled it, until the Tatars (Mongols) invaded. Russians really had no business there, culturally. Their Catherine beat the Tatar population into submission and dumped a Russian population onto the peninsula to legitimize their annexation.
 
so Elon is threatening to pull Star link unless the pentagon foots the bill for it. Makes me wonder what has Putin offered him?
The guy has given millions to support the Ukraine. Same guy offered a plausible peace proposal and was told to go fuck himself by someone who may or may not be part of the Ukrainian government (Telling your sugar daddy to go fuck themselves rarely ends well), at the same time he is spending 44?46? Billion to buy twitter and needs capitol for his other businesses.
We (or NATO) can divert some of the billions being spent to offset his costs.
 
The guy has given millions to support the Ukraine. Same guy offered a plausible peace proposal and was told to go fuck himself by someone who may or may not be part of the Ukrainian government (Telling your sugar daddy to go fuck themselves rarely ends well), at the same time he is spending 44?46? Billion to buy twitter and needs capitol for his other businesses.
We (or NATO) can divert some of the billions being spent to offset his costs.
That was a shitty proposal.
 
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