Ukraine - Russia Conflict

pardus said:
To your first point, are you serious? The current administration bleed this country dry in a matter of days with insane "climate change" policies, inflation, a dependence on foreign and terrorist lead countries with oil that we were INDEPENDENT of under the last administration, any talk of loss of money is worse than a fucking joke now IMO. We could pour a trillion dollars into Ukraine now and it would be meaningless compared to the insane/traitorous policies of our own politicians.

Second point, do you think we live in an isolationist void? That is what cost us things like WWII and 911. The world is connected now, that can't be avoided. Thank you IBMs.

I think people who don't want us involved are ignorant fools who should sit on their lawnchairs and STFU, and NO I won't get past that because I'm not prepared to see a modern Hitler destroy a civilization when I can do something about it. That includes you and your family, if you think you're different to Ukrainians then...

Your third point is nonsensical at best. Wishywashy nonsense, pick a side, make a stand and be a man. Fascism, totalitarian murderous regimes are bad, we kinda worked that out a while ago. Our money is meaningless, pour it on, Ukraine is supplying the blood and for a few bucks you are defeating your enemy, fuck man, be grateful!
The end point? Seriously? Russia is out of Ukraine. Fuck me, why I do I keep needing to say such simple shit!?
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Actually I will respond. I wasn't but I will.

To your first paragraph, the two wrongs make a right argument will never win. Just because our government foolishly, maliciously, and childishly spends money like a drunken sailor doesn't mean it needs to continue.

For your second paragraph, World War I got us in the World War II, and you should know better about bringing up 911, especially that goat rope of Iraq and how we left things in Afghanistan. My point in bringing up your quote with Ben Franklin was in relation to what our early American leadership thought about getting involved in wars overseas and in entangling alliances.

Okay, I won't be wishy-washy. But a timetable and a budget on this thing and call it done. The US can tell all the other European countries that point they can shoulder the responsibility because we're going to be out.

Lastly, don't judge me. Just don't. You don't know me well enough to decide who I am or what I think. If you want to judge my ideological values or my stand as a patriot in the past 54 years of my life based on what I think about Ukraine, you do so to your very significant discredit.

I appreciate your posts and your insight. Be well, be safe.
 
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Devildoc said:
You have compelling points. But at what price is our coin, when it is affecting our economy and bottom dollar here and now?

Your Ben Franklin quote is true, but the backside is none of our the forefathers believed in "entangling alliances".

You need to get past the point that people who don't want us involved are pro-Putin, or even illogically worse, Neville Chamberlain.

I am pro-Uke and anti-Putin, but I'm also 100% American before either. Supplying $ and weapons is not an infinite affair, and it shouldn't be. What I DON'T know is what that cutoff or end-point looks like.
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This isn't affecting our economy in a bad way at all. If anything delivering military aid means more contracts for American companies to supply/re-supply those arms and material.

We just passed some bullshit climate change bill, not a full green new deal thing but this will have far worse effects on our economy than aid to Ukraine.

Since January 2021 we have only authorized 18.5B in aid to Ukraine. So really not much when you compare it to Afghanistan and Iraq. Really a minuscule amount that is going to people who actually intend on defending their country and their people.
 
ThunderHorse said:
This isn't affecting our economy in a bad way at all. If anything delivering military aid means more contracts for American companies to supply/re-supply those arms and material.

We just passed some bullshit climate change bill, not a full green new deal thing but this will have far worse effects on our economy than aid to Ukraine.

Since January 2021 we have only authorized 18.5B in aid to Ukraine. So really not much when you compare it to Afghanistan and Iraq. Really a minuscule amount that is going to people who actually intend on defending their country and their people.
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See my previous posts, like most of them. I am pro-Ukraine, and want them to win, however that looks like. I do not like Putin.

All I am saying is for the love of anything can we have some checks and balances on this and not turn it into another 20-year effort I think Afghanistan?

But I also say as a fiscal conservative that you cannot say this is not hurting the economy in some way when we are running head down into a recession.
 
DA SWO said:
This was written by someone else on another page I frequent:

"I'll wade in on the Starlink shit. Apart from Musk today tweeting fuckit , we'll just keep providing it for free. (the service, i know, some 3/4 of the dishes were paid for by donations). US DOD has paid billions to other defense contractors for their wares, not a single 1 has donated jack shit for free. So, its an absurd bitch fest of signal vs noise at its worst. As to the minutiae, how important, who's got the bigger artillery, the best tanks... This is all childish levels of discussion. Put simply, ask any historian what 1 piece of tech would change the outcome of every single battle fought pre 1900, from Canae to Trafalgar to Gettysburg, and they'll all say the same thing. Bunch of walkie talkies will do it. On Go + 1 hour, Russia turned off every single Ukrainian walkie talkie [satcomms, local internet, cellphones] (vicariously half the sat comms across Europe and US, everyone forgets this), on go + 1 day, Ukraine asked Musk can we have walkie talkies, he said yes. By go + day 5 they started to stream in. For the first 2 weeks of the war, Russia conquered 1/4 of Ukraine. Once C&C was re-established that all stopped, and has been a steady reversal since. It's rare that you can point at a single point of change, but this is one of those. Having Ukrainian officials tweeting Musk can fuck off, is probably as big a threat to the war effort as Putin rattling nukes at them. The level of cognitive dissonance on display by people who should know better is astonishing."
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It is a pretty crazy post because none of that happened.

Like none of it. They didn’t destroy Ukraines satcom, internet or phone or cell coverage. Hence why we watched streaming snap chat stories of the invasion. This post was nonsense.

3 reasons Moscow isn't taking down Ukraine's cell networks - POLITICO

We commented on it here when it happened. I could not believe they had reliable internet and cell coverage during the invasion, as if they fought us, that’d be the first to go. Same with electricity honestly.
 
TLDR20 said:
It is a pretty crazy post because none of that happened.

Like none of it. They didn’t destroy Ukraines satcom, internet or phone or cell coverage. Hence why we watched streaming snap chat stories of the invasion. This post was nonsense.

3 reasons Moscow isn't taking down Ukraine's cell networks - POLITICO

We commented on it here when it happened. I could not believe they had reliable internet and cell coverage during the invasion, as if they fought us, that’d be the first to go. Same with electricity honestly.
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Well, we know the reason why they didn't. Their secure comms don't even work. Their GLONASS systems in their planes don't work, to the point that they had handheld Garmins in their cockpits.

Politico as a source for .mil analysis is substandard. When you consider the fact that because their on unsecure comms it has facilitated the targeting of dozens of general officers.

It's just pure incompetence. But mostly because their systems are trash.
 
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In regards to the Musk stuff:

His "treaty" proposal was nothing except Pro-Russian terms; when The Kremlin loves your deal, it's probably not a good compromise. The only time you see peace deals in which a country surrenders so much of its sovereignty is when that country is getting it's ass stomped and risks losing even more should the war continue. At this point, that isn't where the Ukrainian forces are.

It was only after he was roundly beaten up for his ridiculously Russian friendly peace proposal that he threatened to pull Starlink if the US didn't start paying for it. There are legit business reasons for Musk to try and get some of the Mil complex money, but the timing of his plan makes it look like he was just trying to punish Ukraine because they told him to fuck off with his peace suggestions.
He put Starlink there at his company's own cost, and that's his problem; he'll either eat these costs financially or in the sphere of public opinion if he chooses (in the future) to pull out when he's still not being paid.
Honestly, supporting the Ukrainians pro-bono is likely to net him tons of money in the future because the proof of concept has been excellent.

To the conversation about American support:

I tend to be more in the realm of @Devildoc as I think we militarily (directly or indirectly through financial support) spend way too much of our resources in way too many countries, when those dollars could be much better spent here. That's not to say I don't support any aid, but that I do think it needs to be something we actually monitor instead of treating like a 10 year old who has full access to the amazon account.
That being said, when Russian is doing shit like this:

ThunderHorse said:
There can be no peace.

How Moscow grabs Ukrainian kids and makes them Russians

If a country invaded us and forceably removed thousands of Children we'd have gone to nukes already. Problem for Ukraine is they gave up their nukes.
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fuck it. Send the Ukrainians what help we can. This literally meets what the U.N. (as worthless as they can be) considers Genocide.

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
  1. Killing members of the group;
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
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Cookie_ said:
In regards to the Musk stuff:

His "treaty" proposal was nothing except Pro-Russian terms; when The Kremlin loves your deal, it's probably not a good compromise. The only time you see peace deals in which a country surrenders so much of its sovereignty is when that country is getting it's ass stomped and risks losing even more should the war continue. At this point, that isn't where the Ukrainian forces are.

It was only after he was roundly beaten up for his ridiculously Russian friendly peace proposal that he threatened to pull Starlink if the US didn't start paying for it. There are legit business reasons for Musk to try and get some of the Mil complex money, but the timing of his plan makes it look like he was just trying to punish Ukraine because they told him to fuck off with his peace suggestions.
He put Starlink there at his company's own cost, and that's his problem; he'll either eat these costs financially or in the sphere of public opinion if he chooses (in the future) to pull out when he's still not being paid.
Honestly, supporting the Ukrainians pro-bono is likely to net him tons of money in the future because the proof of concept has been excellent.

To the conversation about American support:

I tend to be more in the realm of @Devildoc as I think we militarily (directly or indirectly through financial support) spend way too much of our resources in way too many countries, when those dollars could be much better spent here. That's not to say I don't support any aid, but that I do think it needs to be something we actually monitor instead of treating like a 10 year old who has full access to the amazon account.
That being said, when Russian is doing shit like this:



fuck it. Send the Ukrainians what help we can. This literally meets what the U.N. (as worthless as they can be) considers Genocide.
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I have no problem with support especially vis a vis genocide. And I have no problem supplying, training, and equipping. I think I have been pretty articulate about my concerns (and not claiming you haven't picked up on that @Cookie_, just saying).
 
There's more at stake here than "just" the Ukraine. It checks Putin and the longer the war drags on the Russian people will grow more restless. Enough to overthrow Putin and Co.? Dunno, but we won't unless that pressure is applied.

The US has a BAD history of cutting and running, dumping our allies in a time of need; we're kind of a shitty partner to be honest. Seeing this through, even with material and political support, sends a message to China, NK, and whoever else wants to play a real life game of Risk.

Even if we tried to moderate a peace deal, the best we can hope for is a return to the status quo antebellum; that's also bullshit.

I'm not happy about announcing aid package after aid package before the last one was even delivered. We did this shit with Pakistan for two decades and that turned out well...

If I thought a half trillion would return the Crimea to the Ukraine and lead to Putin's ousting, then cut a check. We act like out government understands economics and fiscal responsibility. We're morons if we think that. The USG doesn't care and will just keep spending. If we're going to run up our national debt, at least have something to show for our impending national poverty.
 
pardus said:
Yup. Western cuckolds are begging for that exact scenario. What makes me laugh is that rightwing Americans are sucking Putin's cock as cockholds because they are just against the US democrat party. When in fact, they are are traitors. I hate conservatives as much as I hate antifa cunts, you all need to die, and we all need to get back to a moderate point of view. That's the only way that we will win/be normal.
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Brother, conservatives are looking inward because they're under attack. A presidential election was stolen and the people who stole it had the Zelenski govt in their pocket. Putin smelled blood in the water, thought his forces were up to the task, and made his play. Corruption in Ukraine, weakness in NATO, and a multi year long soft coup in the US, paved the way for this conflict.

We tried warning Europe about a bunch of stuff and they laughed.


I'm all for helping the Ukrainians, but equipment and money needs to be accounted for. That said... a couple billion dollars for the destruction of Russia, is a hell of a deal! Especially after everything Russia has put us through, via their allies and multidecade psyop crap.
 
Devildoc said:
See my previous posts, like most of them. I am pro-Ukraine, and want them to win, however that looks like. I do not like Putin.

All I am saying is for the love of anything can we have some checks and balances on this and not turn it into another 20-year effort I think Afghanistan?

But I also say as a fiscal conservative that you cannot say this is not hurting the economy in some way when we are running head down into a recession.
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I was unfair and harsh with you and I apologize for that, it was undeserved.
I am also not advocating for an endless cash flow into Ukraine. If we pump weapons, money etc... into Ukraine right now and in large quantity, it will have a huge effect on the outcome of the war, it will end favorably for the free world and it will end a lot quicker, meaning less death on all sides, and making it cheaper in the long run. We need to show some balls, sanction Russia totally, and really give Ukraine what it needs, this war could've been over this year had we done so, the trade and goodwill generated would offset the costs too.
AWP said:
There's more at stake here than "just" the Ukraine. It checks Putin and the longer the war drags on the Russian people will grow more restless. Enough to overthrow Putin and Co.? Dunno, but we won't unless that pressure is applied.

The US has a BAD history of cutting and running, dumping our allies in a time of need; we're kind of a shitty partner to be honest. Seeing this through, even with material and political support, sends a message to China, NK, and whoever else wants to play a real life game of Risk.

Even if we tried to moderate a peace deal, the best we can hope for is a return to the status quo antebellum; that's also bullshit.

I'm not happy about announcing aid package after aid package before the last one was even delivered. We did this shit with Pakistan for two decades and that turned out well...

If I thought a half trillion would return the Crimea to the Ukraine and lead to Putin's ousting, then cut a check. We act like out government understands economics and fiscal responsibility. We're morons if we think that. The USG doesn't care and will just keep spending. If we're going to run up our national debt, at least have something to show for our impending national poverty.
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Great post. There is a lot more at stake here than Ukraine, while the doing the right thing justification would be enough, we have to think wider and see how this affects the world, and in particular our enemies/potential enemies. The debacle of leaving Afghanistan was a huge sign to the rest of the world that we are weak and incompetent, Putin was undoubtedly emboldened by that, and who could blame him? If we had stood back, wrung our hands and doing nothing in Ukraine, Taiwan would probably be in a much worse position right now.

R.Caerbannog said:
Brother, conservatives are looking inward because they're under attack. A presidential election was stolen and the people who stole it had the Zelenski govt in their pocket. Putin smelled blood in the water, thought his forces were up to the task, and made his play. Corruption in Ukraine, weakness in NATO, and a multi year long soft coup in the US, paved the way for this conflict.

We tried warning Europe about a bunch of stuff and they laughed.


I'm all for helping the Ukrainians, but equipment and money needs to be accounted for. That said... a couple billion dollars for the destruction of Russia, is a hell of a deal! Especially after everything Russia has put us through, via their allies and multidecade psyop crap.
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To be clear I mean the the hard core of the conservatives, not conservatives in general, it's always the extremes of any party/movement that are the assholes and the noise makers. With the media overwhelmingly backing the left and the extreme left I understand why the conservatives are defensive.
I don't want to speculate about elections or Zelenski because I simply don't know. Yeah it was the perfect storm with the points you made about Putin, Ukraine, NATO etc...
Germany fucked up bigtime, I think largely because of that bitch Merkel, I hope they see that now and will act accordingly in future, the EU wasn't much better, and Hungary can suck my balls.
There hasn't been a lot of money sent to Ukraine as far as I know, it's mostly equipment which is being remade here and keeping our arms industry moving.
What do you mean accounted for with the aid, we hand it to the govt, do you think we should be asking for unit hand-receipts? It just doesn't work that way, never has never will. The US military writes off most of the equipment that we deploy with ourselves. That said I do know there are plans being formulated for independent escorts of weapons to military depots.
 
I try to avoid Ukrainian claims due to possible/probable bias, but this brings up an interesting point. You don’t often see or hear of Russians helping their wounded very much, they obviously do but not like the Ukrainians or other western militaries do.
It's interesting to see how this war is effecting the US military medical thinking too, one of the last schools I went to in the US Army was DECM, Delayed Evacuation Casualty Management, Prolonged Field Care in other words, basically the ability for a medic to sit on a patient with multiple amputations etc... for days, instead of minutes, I'm sure @TLDR20 knows exactly what I'm talking about. Now due to the prevalence of drones with thermal equipped cameras and munitions, and the large thermal signatures from medical equipment needed to perform PFC, it is now unsafe and unwise to attempt this in a near peer/conventional conflict, focus is going back to basic TCCC and immediate evacuation by any means possible, when just a couple of years ago we were doing PFC because we didn't think we'd have the ability to evac by air, so we just said, they have to wait... Now there is a push for UAV medevac and the Ukrainians have mastered the use of casevac to get their people to a hospital ASAP (they don't have aid stations and field hospitals to speak of). All very interesting.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1581158396551565313
 
Jaknight said:
Surreal too see this in modern times
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Which part? There are certain aspects of terrain and mobility that will remain true long after the the worms choke on the ash of WWIII and anyone who could pay Jeff Bezos enough has flown off and colonized Mars.

I wouldn't be surprised if there already have been smaller-scale applications of conventional obstacles. Part of me wants to see if the Ukrainians have managed to implement an abatis anywhere...
 

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