Ukraine - Russia Conflict
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TLDR20
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Learn to swim
Go fuck yourself was still an ill advised response from that one individual.
Yeah. Melnyk has quite the temper for a diplomat. Maybe they should have pulled him aside at some point. He reportedly left Germany today and is to become deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine …
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
How so? The Russians are committing genocide in a variety of ways. When that's who your enemy is, surrendering your industrial heartland and millions of acres of your farm land would be ill advised. Those proposed referenda would be an economic death sentence (let's not act like there wouldn't be Russian coercion as no one would be removing those BTGs ahead of the voting in those oblasts). But hey, we're all allowed our opinions.
Devildoc
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Because Elon was a gift horse they were looking in the mouth. If I was Musk I'd definitely take my starlink and go home.
R.Caerbannog
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Why waste the ordinance? We don't need to bomb those countries, situation depending. The upcoming food, fertilizer, and energy shortages are going to kill more of their people, via unrest, disease, and starvation, than any bomb.
All of this is baked in at this point. Any "peace deal", to fix all this, would effectively lead to the dissolution of the Russian state. Musk and the others want appeasement, but there really is no point. The damage has been done worldwide and there is no way to go back in time to sow fields, replenish soils, and produce the necessary inputs, to run a global agricultural system.
Hence, fuck em.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Sure, and then you'd become public enemy number one and one thing that narcissist loves is popularity. But he's not like Trump in how much Trump loves people to be negative. Elon likes to be loved. Hell, if did that State might deport him, Blinken is that incompetent.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
There can be no peace.
How Moscow grabs Ukrainian kids and makes them Russians
If a country invaded us and forceably removed thousands of Children we'd have gone to nukes already. Problem for Ukraine is they gave up their nukes.
pardus
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People calling for a "peace" deal have their heads in the clouds, fools at the very least. There is no "peace deal" to be made with Putin, I thought we collectively agreed in 1939 that appeasement is only for fools and cowards?
Putin is the Hitler of our time, people need to wake the fuck up and realize that. He is torturing, raping and murdering people every single day he is sitting on Ukrainian territory. He needs to agree to leave or he needs to driven out, there is no compromise with that, how could there be? You're going to sacrifice tens/hundreds of thousands of people to torture and death for the foreseeable future so we can say we have "peace"? fuck right off. Ben Franklin supposedly said "Those willing to trade freedom for security, deserve neither" (or words to that effect), that lesson needs to be remembered before it needs to relearned. Peace is going to be won, not negotiated by appeasement in Ukraine. What happens to Russia is up to Russia, when they want a change in leadership, they'll do it, if they don't they will continue to suffer, that's not our decision to make. If the west wasn't so fucking corrupt/money hungry, we would've (and still should BTW) enforce a total sanction on Russia, cut them off 100%, that would really hurt them and is much more likely to make them come to their senses and end their invasion/occupation of Ukraine.
I'm sick of hearing the nonsense too, of Crimea and Donbas want to join Ukraine, that is Russian propaganda and I'm really surprised that some smart people have been duped into following the Russian line. Every Oblast in Ukraine voted to become an independent country after the USSR collapsed, that is even after the commies ethnically cleansed Crimea and replaced those unfortunates with ethnic Russians, which is what Russia does when it wants to permanently take over an area/country, and that is exactly what they have done in the occupied territories, which is why they terrorize the remaining people to follow the party line, you all saw the "election" results right? Saddam election numbers if I've ever seen them.
It hurts my fucking head to even have to write this shit, it should be common sense to every freedom loving person in the world. I have no faith in humanity. If we can't do the right thing here for just the cost of some coin (the Ukrainians are happy to supply the blood) then we don't deserve freedom, in the words of Dr Stranglelove, "Stop worrying and learn to love the bomb", because that's all we'll deserve.
Whether Musk is throwing his dummy over the response he got from Ukraine etc... or not, he has done an absolutely wonderful thing for Ukraine in supplying Starlink, and honestly at this point (or before) the west should be paying for it, they're already supplying the weapons so step up and supply the comms.
Can someone explain to me why the UN hasn't gone all Korea 1950 and Kuwait 1991 on Russia? What's the difference? Because we're all just bitches now? Because it sure seems like it.
Putin is the Hitler of our time, people need to wake the fuck up and realize that. He is torturing, raping and murdering people every single day he is sitting on Ukrainian territory. He needs to agree to leave or he needs to driven out, there is no compromise with that, how could there be? You're going to sacrifice tens/hundreds of thousands of people to torture and death for the foreseeable future so we can say we have "peace"? fuck right off. Ben Franklin supposedly said "Those willing to trade freedom for security, deserve neither" (or words to that effect), that lesson needs to be remembered before it needs to relearned. Peace is going to be won, not negotiated by appeasement in Ukraine. What happens to Russia is up to Russia, when they want a change in leadership, they'll do it, if they don't they will continue to suffer, that's not our decision to make. If the west wasn't so fucking corrupt/money hungry, we would've (and still should BTW) enforce a total sanction on Russia, cut them off 100%, that would really hurt them and is much more likely to make them come to their senses and end their invasion/occupation of Ukraine.
I'm sick of hearing the nonsense too, of Crimea and Donbas want to join Ukraine, that is Russian propaganda and I'm really surprised that some smart people have been duped into following the Russian line. Every Oblast in Ukraine voted to become an independent country after the USSR collapsed, that is even after the commies ethnically cleansed Crimea and replaced those unfortunates with ethnic Russians, which is what Russia does when it wants to permanently take over an area/country, and that is exactly what they have done in the occupied territories, which is why they terrorize the remaining people to follow the party line, you all saw the "election" results right? Saddam election numbers if I've ever seen them.
It hurts my fucking head to even have to write this shit, it should be common sense to every freedom loving person in the world. I have no faith in humanity. If we can't do the right thing here for just the cost of some coin (the Ukrainians are happy to supply the blood) then we don't deserve freedom, in the words of Dr Stranglelove, "Stop worrying and learn to love the bomb", because that's all we'll deserve.
That was ill advised, very undiplomatic and unwise IMHO.
Whether Musk is throwing his dummy over the response he got from Ukraine etc... or not, he has done an absolutely wonderful thing for Ukraine in supplying Starlink, and honestly at this point (or before) the west should be paying for it, they're already supplying the weapons so step up and supply the comms.
They gave up their nukes with a promise from Russia and the USA (maybe Europe to?) to not fuck with them, and help if someone did. We fucked Ukraine over. Shame on us.
Can someone explain to me why the UN hasn't gone all Korea 1950 and Kuwait 1991 on Russia? What's the difference? Because we're all just bitches now? Because it sure seems like it.
ThunderHorse
Verified Military
Because they have a veto. They've actually vetoed several SC resolutions regarding this now. In 1950 they were boycotting because the UN recognized ROC as the permanent seat and not the PRC...which allowed the SC to unanimously pass the resolution for a Korean peace keeping mission.
pardus
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I didn't know about the Soviet boycott in 1950, thank you.
Devildoc
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You have compelling points. But at what price is our coin, when it is affecting our economy and bottom dollar here and now?
Your Ben Franklin quote is true, but the backside is none of our the forefathers believed in "entangling alliances".
You need to get past the point that people who don't want us involved are pro-Putin, or even illogically worse, Neville Chamberlain.
I am pro-Uke and anti-Putin, but I'm also 100% American before either. Supplying $ and weapons is not an infinite affair, and it shouldn't be. What I DON'T know is what that cutoff or end-point looks like.
This was written by someone else on another page I frequent:
"I'll wade in on the Starlink shit. Apart from Musk today tweeting fuckit , we'll just keep providing it for free. (the service, i know, some 3/4 of the dishes were paid for by donations). US DOD has paid billions to other defense contractors for their wares, not a single 1 has donated jack shit for free. So, its an absurd bitch fest of signal vs noise at its worst. As to the minutiae, how important, who's got the bigger artillery, the best tanks... This is all childish levels of discussion. Put simply, ask any historian what 1 piece of tech would change the outcome of every single battle fought pre 1900, from Canae to Trafalgar to Gettysburg, and they'll all say the same thing. Bunch of walkie talkies will do it. On Go + 1 hour, Russia turned off every single Ukrainian walkie talkie [satcomms, local internet, cellphones] (vicariously half the sat comms across Europe and US, everyone forgets this), on go + 1 day, Ukraine asked Musk can we have walkie talkies, he said yes. By go + day 5 they started to stream in. For the first 2 weeks of the war, Russia conquered 1/4 of Ukraine. Once C&C was re-established that all stopped, and has been a steady reversal since. It's rare that you can point at a single point of change, but this is one of those. Having Ukrainian officials tweeting Musk can fuck off, is probably as big a threat to the war effort as Putin rattling nukes at them. The level of cognitive dissonance on display by people who should know better is astonishing."
Jaknight
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I agree their telling of Musk to fuck off was idiotic but I still think his peace proposal was ridiculous and their response should have been handled better than that
pardus
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To your first point, are you serious? The current administration bleed this country dry in a matter of days with insane "climate change" policies, inflation, a dependence on foreign and terrorist lead countries with oil that we were INDEPENDENT of under the last administration, any talk of loss of money is worse than a fucking joke now IMO. We could pour a trillion dollars into Ukraine now and it would be meaningless compared to the insane/traitorous policies of our own politicians.
Second point, do you think we live in an isolationist void? That is what cost us things like WWII and 911. The world is connected now, that can't be avoided. Thank you IBMs.
I think people who don't want us involved are ignorant fools who should sit on their lawnchairs and STFU, and NO I won't get past that because I'm not prepared to see a modern Hitler destroy a civilization when I can do something about it. That includes you and your family, if you think you're different to Ukrainians then...
Your third point is nonsensical at best. Wishywashy nonsense, pick a side, make a stand and be a man. Fascism, totalitarian murderous regimes are bad, we kinda worked that out a while ago. Our money is meaningless, pour it on, Ukraine is supplying the blood and for a few bucks you are defeating your enemy, fuck man, be grateful!
The end point? Seriously? Russia is out of Ukraine. Fuck me, why I do I keep needing to say such simple shit!?
Agree. With the whole statement. I’ll only add, that ppl shouldn’t be mistaken. If Ukraine permanently loses those territories, regardless of whether by raw force or brokered peace deal, Russia will come out of this as clear victor and be further emboldened.
It really can't be downplayed. Ukraine will not only permanently lose Crimea ( + offshore resources ) and its Black Sea ports ( except for maybe Odessa ), the entire coastline, but also its industrial heartland. That is a catastrophe, from which they won’t recover any time soon, or maybe ever. Both sides are willing to sacrifice thousands of people. The difference is, Russia is just trying to sate its kleptomania, while Ukraine is fighting for its dear life and those territories are their vital organs. The Interntional Community already screwed up big time allowing the nonchalant Crimea grab. Now this. We do that and he’ll repeat the exact same thing 10, maybe 5 years later in the Baltics or South Caucasus, and he won't give a single damn about NATO, and quite frankly he will probably be right.
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pardus
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Yup. Western cuckolds are begging for that exact scenario. What makes me laugh is that rightwing Americans are sucking Putin's cock as cockholds because they are just against the US democrat party. When in fact, they are are traitors. I hate conservatives as much as I hate antifa cunts, you all need to die, and we all need to get back to a moderate point of view. That's the only way that we will win/be normal.
