Violence in Baltimore

[policemedic]

the thing that really bothered me is that my friend thought it was normal or ok. That is the issue, that it is so common that it is normal. I would never be stopped by the police and for sure would never be frisked.

Don't be so sure; I was.

Mind you, I was a teenager in Montréal and was just leaving Driver's Ed but the officer explained to me why and I understood his reasoning.

If I were stopped outside of Philadelphia now, and I understand how that could happen, I would expect a more interesting experience because I am always armed (with interesting handguns).

There's a difference between being stopped for investigation and being frisked. There's also a legal difference between being frisked and searched, both in how it's done and the justification needed to do so.

 

[Florida173]

How is me saying, "The Freddie Gray issue is an example of the continued race issue in America, and here are some other examples of race issues in America" confirmation bias? It sort of makes me feel like you don't know what confirmation bias means

This is exactly confirmation bias if you believe every time you see an act of possible police brutality as a racism issue.

 

[amlove21]

I will not assert that as it is not true. Looking at the AA on Hispanic violence as Mexicans move into Compton shoots it full of holes right there. That's racism, even though there are no whites involved. Which minority would you assert has the privilege there? I'll wait for your answer.

I did not say that race was not an issue at all. I said that it was not the primary issue. Perhaps my wording was less clear than it needed to be.[/QUOTE]
Neither has the privilege there! But I also don't feel like your example speaks to racism. Violence amongst the same racial group isn't racism unless, as @lindy pointed out, that it has something specifically to do with a feeling that a race is superior/inferior to another.

What I am saying is that I believe this was a race issue. The presence of a minority officer doesn't rule that out, not in the least.

You explained yourself well, no worries there. No animosity here at all. It's important we can discuss this stuff off the cuff- not everything has to be polished.

I am sorry, but what evidence do you have to support that this is a race issue? Some of what you are saying in previous posts raises valid concerns. However, now it appears as if the intent is to say this issue is one race trying to oppress another. Again, this is an issue of the police mentality and culture. Where law enforcement as a whole must evolve. IE... the concept of inflicting injury on a suspect in custody, denying medical treatment, focused enforcement in an area to generate revenue or even having an agency investigate their own high visibility felony involving one of their own. Unfortunately, public confidence has been lost in the police ability to police their own.

If this had been a white or hispanic person that died, the community would not have been up in arms. That is racism from the community.

Well, let's do this. Let's take all the police brutality cases this year only, in America only, to include those that were settled out of court. I will be willing to bet you a month's pay that the majority (51% or more) involved predominantly white officers and black/hispanic people being arrested. Every officer that's been charged with, suspended for, or suspected of police brutality in the past year in America. Including those that were settled out of court. I'll put the first link to the Baltimore Sun, talking about how much more Baltimore spends on out of court settlements for police brutality. How many white people do you think accounts for that money?

You wanna take that bet?

My intent in talking about this issue is to highlight the police brutality issue in this country at the moment. To deny that the majority of the time, it's white officers and black citizens is awfully disingenuous.

You're right- if it was a white person that died, we wouldn't have been up in arms. Know why? This hardly happens to white people at a rate which it happens to blacks. White people don't have generation upon generation of these stories in their families to be pissed off about.

And no, I am in no way saying there is a race trying to gain ultimate superiority- that's a little wonky for me even to type.

But yes, there is a race issue in America. And there is a police brutality issue in America. And the Freddie Gray event demonstrates both, in my opinion.

 

[amlove21]

This is exactly confirmation bias if you believe every time you see an act of possible police brutality as a racism issue.

No- I think that race might be involved every time a black or hispanic dies in police custody when those police were predominately white, and excessive force was used in the arrest.

Confirmation bias is searching for data (erroneously) to support a preconceived notion or previously held belief, usually in the face of the actual findings.

America has an issue with race is not an preconceived notion or erroneous belief. When predominantly white officers kill black people at a regular pace on video in America, that's not me shoehorning bad data into an answer that jives with my preconceived notions.

 

[racing_kitty]

Neither has the privilege there! But I also don't feel like your example speaks to racism. Violence amongst the same racial group isn't racism unless, as @lindy pointed out, that it has something specifically to do with a feeling that a race is superior/inferior to another.

I've got quite a large quantity of legal Mexican in-laws in the San Diego area that will wholeheartedly beg to differ. African Americans and Hispanics are not in the same racial group, unless you are simply referring to them as non-Caucasian, and the resentment that my in-laws have encountered from the black community for not only being here but marrying into a white family is nothing short of astonishing. It is racism, because the blacks feel superior to the Mexicans.

 

[amlove21]

I've got quite a large quantity of legal Mexican in-laws in the San Diego area that will wholeheartedly beg to differ. African Americans and Hispanics are not in the same racial group, unless you are simply referring to them as non-Caucasian, and the resentment that my in-laws have encountered from the black community for not only being here but marrying into a white family is nothing short of astonishing. It is racism, because the blacks feel superior to the Mexicans.

Yep, sorry, just misunderstood what you typed.

So, we agree that minorities can exhibit racism towards other minorities- so a minority officer as part of the six arresting makes no never mind now, right? Race could and very well may be the primary factor in Freddie Gray's treatment?

 

[racing_kitty]

It could be the primary reason, but I do not believe that it is the primary reason, unless any minority officer present was of the same mentality as a Jew supporting the Nazi army (think George Soros's admission in his 60 Minutes interview). I've met more than my fair share of minority police officers that would join the Klan if it weren't for their skin color, which is why I do not dismiss your premise outright.

 

[nobodythank you]

Well, let's do this. Let's take all the police brutality cases this year only, in America only, to include those that were settled out of court. I will be willing to bet you a month's pay that the majority (51% or more) involved predominantly white officers and black/hispanic people being arrested. Every officer that's been charged with, suspended for, or suspected of police brutality in the past year in America. Including those that were settled out of court. I'll put the first link to the Baltimore Sun, talking about how much more Baltimore spends on out of court settlements for police brutality. How many white people do you think accounts for that money?

You wanna take that bet?

Lets indeed. You will bet me a month's pay over faulty data? Again, these numbers are based on what data? As the one making the statement, the burden of proof falls on you. Otherwise your statement is nothing but posturing.

What classifies as police brutality? The accusation? Sustained? Cops are constantly being accused of brutality where none exist. I was personally accused of excessive force (and cleared) because the woman did not like being told to not talk on her phone in the library. I asked her several times to discuss the issue outside and she forced me to place her into custody. Was that brutality?

Personal observation? Ok let's play, as a street cop for almost five years (not at present) I saw the opposite of what you claim. However, we can't rely on my observations because they are only representative of a small portion of the population.

My intent in talking about this issue is to highlight the police brutality issue in this country at the moment. To deny that the majority of the time, it's white officers and black citizens is awfully disingenuous.

I have already agreed that and stated at least twice that the issue is about law enforcement and their actions. To say that the majority of time it is white versus black is equally disingenuous. You have zero proof to this claim. What is reported on the news is not indicative of reality.

You're right- if it was a white person that died, we wouldn't have been up in arms. Know why? This hardly happens to white people at a rate which it happens to blacks. White people don't have generation upon generation of these stories in their families to be pissed off about.

Sorry, this argument is ridiculous. This is not a Klingon Empire where the children are held accountable for the father's sins. What happened prior to the enactment of the Civil Right's Act is within the realm of those generations. Those rioting in the streets had no dog in the fight within that context. Academically and legally this hold no relevance. The argument could even be made morally speaking, but I acknowledge that there is the possibility there is some relevance.

But yes, there is a race issue in America. And there is a police brutality issue in America. And the Freddie Gray event demonstrates both, in my opinion.

The issue of race is focused around people's desire to dwell on the past and not work to improve the future. Does racism exist? Absolutely. It does not mean however, that everything that occurs is rooted in race. Many people do not tolerate racism in others. This event *possibly demonstrates police brutality. We won't know until the final report is out. Nor should we rush to hang those officers involved before all of the facts are in. Do I agree that it is probable that there was some misconduct or negligence on some officers part? It is highly likely, but I won't condemn another man without knowing for sure.

EDIT: Not saying you are condemning anyone. Believe me, I understand the frustration and worry at the possibilities that are going on here (Baltimore and across the nation). However, it does no one any good to constantly bring race into the picture before it is proven. If the officers are found to have acted with racial malice, then that needs to be handled. Until then let's wait till we have more data to reach a logical conclusion is all I am saying.

 

[policemedic]

I've got quite a large quantity of legal Mexican in-laws in the San Diego area that will wholeheartedly beg to differ. African Americans and Hispanics are not in the same racial group, unless you are simply referring to them as non-Caucasian, and the resentment that my in-laws have encountered from the black community for not only being here but marrying into a white family is nothing short of astonishing. It is racism, because the blacks feel superior to the Mexicans.

Latin and black girls are equally hot.

That is all.

 

[amlove21]

Lets indeed. You will bet me a month's pay over faulty data? Again, these numbers are based on what data? As the one making the statement, the burden of proof falls on you. Otherwise your statement is nothing but posturing.

I'll bet a month's pay over exactly what I stated- that if we looked at all the police brutality cases in America, 51% of those cases would be white officers vice black/hispanic citizens. I don't know what faulty data you're speaking of, but we can narrow it down to cops that were either convicted or the city settle out of court, for ease. The only true claim I have made is that I would bet on that 51%. Which, still true.

Cops are constantly being accused of brutality where none exist. I was personally accused of excessive force (and cleared) because the woman did not like being told to not talk on her phone in the library. I asked her several times to discuss the issue outside and she forced me to place her into custody. Was that brutality?

Well, I don't really know, and I am ok with saying I am neither a lawyer nor a civil rights expert. Was it? Is that story relevant to a guy ending up with a severed spine, or being choked to death, or being shot while running away?

Personal observation? Ok let's play, as a street cop for almost five years (not at present) I saw the opposite of what you claim. However, we can't rely on my observations because they are only representative of a small portion of the population.

And that observation plays here. But, are you saying you saw black cops being overly aggressive with white people being arrested? Black cops systematically singling out and searching white people? Or are you saying that people were falsely claiming police brutality?

Sorry, this argument is ridiculous. This is not a Klingon Empire where the children are held accountable for the father's sins. What happened prior to the enactment of the Civil Right's Act is within the realm of those generations. Those rioting in the streets had no dog in the fight within that context. Academically and legally this hold no relevance. The argument could even be made morally speaking, but I acknowledge that there is the possibility there is some relevance.

What is a klingon? Is that the dude that had to take the ring to that volcano or whatever?

I hate this argument. It always feels like, "Bro, I get it- your great great grandpa was a slave, and now you're sort of held to a different standard- get over it." Sorry man, until equality is truly reached, and we don't have to have these arguments anymore, it plays. It will always play. Again- we dont understand this because we dont deal with it. Legally, it 100% is relevant. Playing the race card is a viable defense- granted, that's got a huge negative context and in that negative context (highlighting our race issue in a shitty way to get a client off of a crime he actually committed *cough* OJ), but the race card is there because we have to keep reminding people that this is an issue. It's not going away.

EDIT: Not saying you are condemning anyone. Believe me, I understand the frustration and worry at the possibilities that are going on here (Baltimore and across the nation). However, it does no one any good to constantly bring race into the picture before it is proven. If the officers are found to have acted with racial malice, then that needs to be handled. Until then let's wait till we have more data to reach a logical conclusion is all I am saying.

It's ok if you ARE saying that. Really.

I can be wrong, totally off. But I wont know until I have a conversation about it and can figure it out with my peers.

But I feel the exact opposite about race.

It does no one any good to fail to bring race into the picture before racism is disproven in our society. Until it is laughable that anyone would ever treat anyone different because of race (or ethnicity or sexual orientation or whatever), then we have to bring it up. And keep bringing it up. And keep talking about it. Granted, that's 100% personal opinion.

But I feel the opposite isn't advancement, it's comfortability with the way things are and that obviously isnt working.

 

[nobodythank you]

I'll bet a month's pay over exactly what I stated- that if we looked at all the police brutality cases in America, 51% of those cases would be white officers vice black/hispanic citizens. I don't know what faulty data you're speaking of, but we can narrow it down to cops that were either convicted or the city settle out of court, for ease. The only true claim I have made is that I would bet on that 51%. Which, still true.

Negative. Show the numbers. I cannot stress this enough. The faulty data is the arbitrary statement that 51% of police brutality is white on black. This is simply not true. However, since you made the claim the responsibility to prove it rest with you. I am also looking for the numbers, but so far the last hour has proven difficult to find current statistics for the previous year. It appears they are not all in yet and have not been analyzed. Even then, accusations (which is not the same as convictions or sustainment) account for a mere fraction of total citizen contacts.

Well, I don't really know, and I am ok with saying I am neither a lawyer nor a civil rights expert. Was it? Is that story relevant to a guy ending up with a severed spine, or being choked to death, or being shot while running away?

Wow. Just wow. First of all, the Justice Department of the United States concluded that Brown was NOT running away, and not one witness actually testified to actually seeing him run away or had his hands in the air. In addition, the multitude of physical evidence proved that Brown was running towards Wilson. The case of Garner is less cut and dry as to the events that occurred, and he was being placed under arrest. The only similarity to the current event is perhaps the issue of medical treatment. Out of all of these events, the severed spine is the most damning and telling of the issue of brutality IF it is found to have occurred. We just don't have all the facts yet.

The story I told is relevant in the context that excessive force accusations are made all the time and each must be investigated thoroughly. And yes it was necessary to take her into custody. If you wish to discuss the finer points of that incident I can. However, it may take away from the overall issue.

And that observation plays here. But, are you saying you saw black cops being overly aggressive with white people being arrested? Black cops systematically singling out and searching white people? Or are you saying that people were falsely claiming police brutality?

Forgive me, I was unclear in my intent on that one. I am saying that in the majority of times, it was white officers getting complaints from white citizens about excessive force and whatnot. However, since you mentioned it, in most instances yes. People were falsely claiming brutality. That is not to say that it does not happen and should be stomped out when found.

What is a klingon? Is that the dude that had to take the ring to that volcano or whatever?

No dude lol Star Trek, big smelly dark skinned warriors with ridges on their heads that kicked ass and took names. The joke was more intended for those that know me and played Star Trek Online with. Apologies lol.

I hate this argument. It always feels like, "Bro, I get it- your great great grandpa was a slave, and now you're sort of held to a different standard- get over it." Sorry man, until equality is truly reached, and we don't have to have these arguments anymore, it plays. It will always play. Again- we dont understand this because we dont deal with it. Legally, it 100% is relevant. Playing the race card is a viable defense- granted, that's got a huge negative context and in that negative context (highlighting our race issue in a shitty way to get a client off of a crime he actually committed *cough* OJ), but the race card is there because we have to keep reminding people that this is an issue. It's not going away.

Bullshit. I did not place anyone in bondage. I did not discriminate against anyone as a law enforcement officer. Those kids were not in Selma getting sprayed with fire hoses and having dogs let loose on them. I am not to be held accountable for the actions of my ancestors. I am to be held accountable for my own actions and no one else. True equality will never be reached in the way you are claiming. As human beings we naturally tend to gravitate towards those like us. It does not mean we shouldn't try, it just means that it will never be perfect and the fight must continue to strive for equality. Legally it is not relevant UNLESS it can be shown that the officers reasons at the time of the event were racially motivated. Note that it is at the time. Of course the race issue isn't going away. People keep race baiting in the name of equality, but it is anything but equal. There are those of us out there that see a person beyond the pigment of their skin. Of course there are those out there who do not. I do not need to be reminded, or blamed for things I did not do. Pure and simple.

It's ok if you ARE saying that. Really.

I can be wrong, totally off. But I wont know until I have a conversation about it and can figure it out with my peers.

But I feel the exact opposite about race.

Now this I can get behind and completely agree with. The most important part of all of this is the conversation. For how are we to know if we don't talk? Although, isn't it hypocritical to believe that about everything else, but race has to be interjected in every event?

 

[AWP]

I looked for some data on police brutality cases. Let's throw around some numbers to prove or disprove certain claims.

Yeah....

There's not a lot of information out there, nothing from a scholarly source. This sums it up well and you'll note that even the numbers in this article vary:
http://journalistsresource.org/stud...rce-brutality-race-research-review-statistics#

One of the few reputable sources available:
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=703

Males were more likely than females to have force used or threatened against them during their most recent contact with police during 2008, and blacks were more likely than whites or Hispanics to experience use or threat of force.

I didn't read the follow-on reports to see what numbers constituted "more likely."

Even the FBI is stumped over the available, or lack thereof, data:

http://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/hard-truths-law-enforcement-and-race

Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

When the Director of the FBI can't find reliable data we're left with vague terms. We're also left with a staggering lack of context regarding the available data. Let's say white people are less likely to have a case of police brutality. What's their criminal background? Did they follow the officer's instructions? Compare that with other ethnicities. Were officers more aggressive with minorities? Which ones? Where? Size of the department? Experience of the officer?

We can say that black people are more likely than white people to suffer from police brutality or excessive force and the arguments end there because we lack context regarding the incomplete data.

Enjoy your debate.

 

[RetPara]

....
We can say that black people are more likely than white people to suffer from police brutality or excessive force and the arguments end there because we lack context regarding the incomplete data.
Enjoy your debate.

Great.... Just fucking great.... SOMEONE has to inject reason and logic into a perfectly good web brawl. What the happened to good old days where something could be discussed for DAYS & DAYS based solely on our personal bias's, restricted points of view, and preconceived notions?

 

[TLDR20]

I think that it is hard for people in America to talk about racism, and things like privelege because they talk from a position of their personal experience. "Well there can't be racism because I'm not racist", "privelege? I have had to work for everything I've gotten..." But that isn't the point. On average the system has racist tendencies. On average a tall white handsome male is more likely to succeed in life not based on merit. That is what I am talking about, those are systemic issues.

 

[Florida173]

No- I think that race might be involved every time a black or hispanic dies in police custody when those police were predominately white, and excessive force was used in the arrest.

Confirmation bias is searching for data (erroneously) to support a preconceived notion or previously held belief, usually in the face of the actual findings.

America has an issue with race is not an preconceived notion or erroneous belief. When predominantly white officers kill black people at a regular pace on video in America, that's not me shoehorning bad data into an answer that jives with my preconceived notions.

Your bias is getting in the way of the facts.

I think that it is hard for people in America to talk about racism, and things like privelege because they talk from a position of their personal experience. "Well there can't be racism because I'm bit racist", "privelege? I have had to work for everything I've gotten..." But that isn't the point. On average the system has racist tendencies. On average a tall white handsome male is more likely to succeed in life not based on merit. That is what I am talking about, those are systemic issues.

There is some pretty solid writings out there that talk about white privilege and how it did exist before, but in no way fits today's societal climate. It was based on specific tenets that don't exist today

 

[TLDR20]

There is some pretty solid writings out there that talk about white privilege and how it did exist before, but in no way fits today's societal climate. It was based on specific tenets that don't exist today

I doubt that, but post it up.

An example of my privelege, I went to a school without a resource officer, I got in fights in High School and didn't become a criminal. I can walk down the street in Durham without fear of being stopped. Those are privileges not afforded to many in our country.

My sociology teacher did a great demonstration of privelege. She put a trash can on the desk in the front of the room and said whoever gets a piece of paper in the can gets a million bucks. Obviously everyone had an equal chance, 1 piece of paper, 1 chance. But the kid at the desk is yhe only one who made it in. That is an example of privelege. Through no control or effort of his own, he was placed in a position to succeed not based on merit or experience, but based on where the can was placed.

In the real world the can is normally placed out of reach for many not due to their lack of effort, but based on things they cannot control. Of course some do overcome those stacked odds, and they deserve the praise they receive. But on average, less privileged people are held out of reach by the system.

 

[Florida173]

In the real world the can is normally placed out of reach for many not due to their lack of effort, but based on things they cannot control. Of course some do overcome those stacked odds, and they deserve the praise they receive. But on average, less privileged people are held out of reach by the system.

I suppose if you were to believe that the trashcan was the only way to get a million dollars and that someone was just providing it there for the taking.

 

[TLDR20]

I suppose if you were to believe that the trashcan was the only way to get a million dollars and that someone was just providing it there for the taking.

It has nothing to do with the money. It has to do with opportunity.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Oh, don't even give me that privilege bullshit. I'm white. I was a microcosom minority in school (Starting class of 1000ish, graduating of 460, 60 of which were varying degrees of sheet of paper, school size of 4k with a campus cop among other things, oh yeah no red or blue clothes, dickies/ben davis, no hats and bag inspections on demand) Not only was I white and fodder for the fucking masses thanks to , I was also poor white with 2 whopping new sets of jeans and shirts for a fucking school year having to learn to IMT thanks to the gangster neighbours at the tender age of 14, working 2 jobs from 15-17 before I even enlisted in the army. I got in fights too, more appropriately I defended myself multiple times against multiple assailants each time. They finally got the point that why yes, I am the crazy white guy you shouldn't fuck with when I chased the last group (different each fucking time, it seemed everyone wanted to fuck with that white kid) for 6 blocks away from school.

I also had a drunk father that I put in jail for assaulting my mother and a schitzophrenic grandmother who I had to caretake as well during this whole fucking fantastic growing up. Oh yeah, we also had a one bedroom house. I rode in the back of pickup trucks more than I can remember and lived in a bumper pull trailer for a few years too due to the 89 quake in california and our house being unstable until we reinforced the foundation with a shitton of pier blocks using a bottle jack to raise the house to make it work.

In the real world if you can't reach the can you get the fuck up and go put the shit in the can, not bemoan that you're not sitting close enough to it. My can I needed to reach was getting the fuck out of california and the military provided me a means to do so and also get to do shit I would never either be allowed to, be legally able to, or afford to do. I had no college fund, no college prospects, and no boost from my parents to go do/accomplish/achieve jack shit.

I haven't had a single privilege from being white other than being shit on because I am white by anyone who isn't and is butthurt because they think the grass is greener. Every thing I've had or have I achieved on the merit of my accomplishments *I* fucking built. Not my name, not my color or lack thereof, but what the hell I have learned how to do and can demonstrate on demand.

I don't give a shit what color someone is, never have never will. I give a shit that you're a decent person that keeps their word and does the job they're supposed to do in the confines that our society has built for us. That means not fighting the cops, not rioting, not being a fucking douche bag, not slinging dope... the shit ain't hard but it sure as hell seems to be for some people these days.

When I hear white privilege, I sneer at whoever is saying it and the entire concept in general. Being a decent human being goes a hell of a lot further than being white.

 

[Ranger Psych]

Matter of fact, there were a ton of opportunities in school that I was outright not eligible for because I wasn't (insert anything but white here). privilege, pfft.