Favorite pistol caliber?

[lockNload]

Hollis, do you have a link to the rest of the article? Those results were very staggering and puzzling. I've always heard good things about Gold Dots in ballistic tests and actual shootings. I carry 147 gr Gold Dots in my Glock 19.

I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek: Comments or observations on this?

 

[HOLLiS]

Hollis, do you have a link to the rest of the article? Those results were very staggering and puzzling. I've always heard good things about Gold Dots in ballistic tests and actual shootings. I carry 147 gr Gold Dots in my Glock 19.

I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek: Comments or observations on this?

Sorry, no I don't.

The officer fired his M4 first under the car at the perps feet. I also tend to think the officers did not spend much time at the range. A lot of rounds was where expended.

 

[arizonaguide]

Here's a link to the FBI .pdf file...warning Graphic! [NSFW]
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

 

[08steeda]

I wish the 10MM was adopted more! I love the round and the wow factor was pretty impressive too! All my buddies are .45 guys and my 10MM's made then green with envy. Colt Delta Elite 10mm and a Gold cup in 10mm.

I am telling you shooting 1 gallon milk jugs full of water, bowling pins and cinder blocks the 10MM was far more impressive than the .45's.

Don't get me wrong I love .45's too! Just love the 10's a lot more!

 

[lockNload]

Thanks arizonaguide. The perp had a tattoo that said live by the gun, die by the gun and a couple of crossed revolvers. I know there are "fluke" incidents with guys still fighting after taking a lot of hits but the alleged performance results are what's really surprising. The link says they had to "fight" assailant in order to be cuffed?!? The guy took 17 rds and is still fighting? They actually cuff him at all? Sorry I'm just confused by a lot of this :uhh:

 

[pardus]

I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek: Comments or observations on this?

Lack of training, plain and simple.

 

[Centermass]

Hollis, do you have a link to the rest of the article? Those results were very staggering and puzzling. I've always heard good things about Gold Dots in ballistic tests and actual shootings. I carry 147 gr Gold Dots in my Glock 19.

I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek: Comments or observations on this?

Did you read not only the entire FBI PP presentation at the link posted, but all of the posts made here?

If you did, you would already know the findings about the ammunition and some of the conclusions jumped to.

Real life ain't like the movies where the car blows up on impact or one shot takes out the bad guy.

 

[arizonaguide]

The guy took 17 rds and is still fighting? They actually cuff him at all? Sorry I'm just confused by a lot of this :uhh:

It is confusing LNL. We are so televisionized that we assume that someone gets shot, they die before they hit the ground.

In real life(death) to my understanding this is possible with a destructive shot to the hypothalamus/lower brain/stem area, and that is the typical target in a hostage rescue/swat long range type shot. It's also what professional killers aim for with silenced .22's, and as history shows in the old days "ice picks". It is what may be damaged in UFC/boxing's illegal "rabbit" punches to the back of the head. Here are some related medical links:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/brain5.htm
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/6083-our-brain-the-brain-stem-video.htm

Other than that, a bad guy can squeeze off many shots/fight before ever going down dead, even after shots to vital organs/other brain areas. Much of this is directly linked to his "will to live/fight", his resistance to "shock", and/or certain types of drugs such as PCP...which is famous for providing "super human" strength/resistance.

To protect yourself (and your family) from such serious (and often drug crazed) threats, it's important to have all the facts and plan/train accordingly.

 

[Diamondback 2/2]

It is confusing LNL. We are so televisionized that we assume that someone gets shot, they die before they hit the ground.

In real life(death) to my understanding this is possible with a destructive shot to the hypothalamus/lower brain/stem area, and that is the typical target in a hostage rescue/swat long range type shot. It's also what professional killers aim for with silenced .22's, and as history shows in the old days "ice picks". It is what may be damaged in UFC/boxing's illegal "rabbit" punches to the back of the head. Here are some related medical links:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/brain5.htm
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/6083-our-brain-the-brain-stem-video.htm

Other than that, a bad guy can squeeze off many shots/fight before ever going down dead, even after shots to vital organs/other brain areas. Much of this is directly linked to his "will to live/fight", his resistance to "shock", and/or certain types of drugs such as PCP...which is famous for providing "super human" strength/resistance.

To protect yourself (and your family) from such serious (and often drug crazed) threats, it's important to have all the facts and plan/train accordingly.

Damn good post! ;)

Real life ain't like the movies where the car blows up on impact or one shot takes out the bad guy.

Unless you have the intergalactic death ray, then it’s all one hitter quitter…

 

[AssadUSMC]

People have died from a .25 ACP round to the ankle, but then others haven't died from headshots, multiple torso hits, etc. Just keep shooting until the threat is gone. My favorite places? Upper chest/neck and pelvic girdle - lots of big blood vessels and it's real hard to stand and fight when you can't stand.

As far as .40 goes, ballistically it's a great round. Unfortunately, packing all that punch into a small round means it's hot as hell. The byproduct of that heat? LOTS of muzzle flip (not recoil) and muzzle blast. I think it's a big misconception that recoil affects follow-up shots, when really it's muzzle flip. Another reason I like .45 - a nice, slow push back, but not much flip. Stats on paper are one thing, having to use it in the real world is another...

Just my :2c:

 

[dusty]

Shoot face.:)

 

[WillBrink]

Lack of training, plain and simple.

People think LEOs are far better trained then they are. The major metro PD here (which from my location should not be hard to figure out), officers have to qualify 2x per year, at 100nd per session. That's a grand total of 200rnd per year fired by most of their officers, unless they take it on themselves (and most don't, believe me) to work on their skills. This major PD, has no indoor range BTW. I don't know the quals for every PD, and clearly some take their firearms training more serious then others, but for many, it's very low on the priority list. The guys on the RRT/SWAT team are much better trained as you would expect, but they are also very busy working as full time LEO, as well as doing the RRT stuff, etc, so their ability to actually train is limited by that.

 

[Ranger Psych]

maybe it's weapon size/weight but my USP .40 fullsize had jack for flip... really controllable...

 

[WillBrink]

maybe it's weapon size/weight but my USP .40 fullsize had jack for flip... really controllable...

The MnP compact .40 the GF just got has pronounced recoil, but it's manageable . I can shoot with it fine in terms of SD accuracy at SD distances, and she's getting used to it.

 

[08steeda]

Yeah, when I was doing IPSC and we did some training on base for the local LEO's, most of them were pretty lousy marksman. It is a matter of doing more than is required to meet qualifications. They should be shooting EVERY week and have access to competent instructors.

The AF - Combat Arms folks tried to pass along that mind set and the idea to get them to adopt an on-going training regiment but they blew it off!

It does not surprise me in the least that many LEO's have to throw a lot of lead to get the job done. Although all the tactical teams had real shooters. Tactical Folks who could hit the target with an economy of effort and efficiency.

I shot anchor for a local alphabet agency against other departments and agencies for several years. It was scary how bad some of the folks were with their primary weapons. My advice was, get a scabbard for a shotgun and strap it on!

Almost every shooter that was good was Prior-Service.

It is simple: You have to hit what you are aiming at!!!!

2 in the chest and 1 in the head and the threat is down!!! No matter how drugged up they are!

 

[HOLLiS]

With departments (LEO) budget is a big part of the problem. Also being understaffed does not help. This is more with smaller departments. Also people are people, there are some people who will not do anything related to their job unless they where paid to do it. When I worked for a agency, I would fire 500 rds/month at my own expense and time. There are also, at that time, some officers considered it a badge of honor for their ammo turning green in their leathers/web gear.

Departments often don't want aggressive officers because of the PR, until that rare event that something actually goes really bad.

 

[pardus]

Shoot face.:)

Yep, do that even with a .22 and you'll see decent results, make him think twice anyway lol

People think LEOs are far better trained then they are. The major metro PD here (which from my location should not be hard to figure out), officers have to qualify 2x per year, at 100nd per session. That's a grand total of 200rnd per year fired by most of their officers, unless they take it on themselves (and most don't, believe me) to work on their skills. This major PD, has no indoor range BTW. I don't know the quals for every PD, and clearly some take their firearms training more serious then others, but for many, it's very low on the priority list. The guys on the RRT/SWAT team are much better trained as you would expect, but they are also very busy working as full time LEO, as well as doing the RRT stuff, etc, so their ability to actually train is limited by that.

With departments (LEO) budget is a big part of the problem. Also being understaffed does not help. This is more with smaller departments. Also people are people, there are some people who will not do anything related to their job unless they where paid to do it. When I worked for a agency, I would fire 500 rds/month at my own expense and time. There are also, at that time, some officers considered it a badge of honor for their ammo turning green in their leathers/web gear.

Departments often don't want aggressive officers because of the PR, until that rare event that something actually goes really bad.

I heard nightmare stories about the NYPD from a head NYPD firearms instructor.
Officers turning up with weapons unloaded from when they were last at the range for their firearms qualifications!
That means they patrolled for at least 6 mths with no ammo in their weapon! :eek:
Others that had non functioning weapons, on inspection, it was found the weapons were rusted to the point they were inoperable.

That said I know Officers that are superb marksmen and extremely competent with their weapons.
But as a general rule I don't trust Police with firearms... just my :2c:

 

[lockNload]

Did you read not only the entire FBI PP presentation at the link posted, but all of the posts made here?

If you did, you would already know the findings about the ammunition and some of the conclusions jumped to.

Real life ain't like the movies where the car blows up on impact or one shot takes out the bad guy.

I read the whole FBI PP but no didn't read all 7 pages posted here. Before choosing a SD round to carry I did research over on ar15.com on their ammo forum. There's a guy that's an ammo expert and posted a bunch of ballistic data and listed effective rounds in various calibers and the 3 brands were Gold Dots, Federal HST, and Winchester Ranger T. The lack of performance in this case is very odd. While real world is different, those ballisitic tests are done to show as realistically as possible how that round will react on human tissue, even after passing through heavy denim or windshields. The Gold Dots exceed the FBI standard of 12 inches of penetration and intially in the PP the conclusion was an inch of penetration. Then later they were saying it's impossible for it to fully expand like they did with only penetrating one inch.

I learned about the misconceptions with shooting someone in my CCW class so by no means expect someone to go down with one shot. My point was that when someone takes over 5 rounds center mass and is still going strong that's what surprises me. I guess vitals weren't being hit and this guy was a tough mofo. In this case the guy wasn't hopped up on meth or pcp but just had a little weed in his system.

For those of you that have shot people down range, is there an average number of rounds it takes to eliminate the threat, 2 or 3? I realize using Hornady TAP 75 grain here in LE or for SD is a more superior round than the 55 gr or 62 gr ball ammo used by the military and that shot placement is paramount. Just curious if we can draw a conclusion as for generally how many rounds, accepting the fact that certain incidents will be more or less.

 

[pardus]

I recall reading exerts from the Falklands war, where people were being hit with the 7.62mm and not going down to the surprise of the Soldiers.
One article I read said the 7.62mm didn't perform as well as expected, inferior to the .303 previously fielded.

Unfortunately I don't have that info anymore.

 

[WillBrink]

I read the whole FBI PP but no didn't read all 7 pages posted here. Before choosing a SD round to carry I did research over on ar15.com on their ammo forum. There's a guy that's an ammo expert and posted a bunch of ballistic data and listed effective rounds in various calibers

I assume Dr Roberts? If interested, I started a thread a while back on the issue of Terminal Ballistics with additional info:

http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9192&page=8&highlight=terminal+ballistics

Another thread to read is "man stopper myths"

http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16729&highlight=terminal+ballistics